[Rick James]

In the interests of a campaign I am (slowly) writing, I have a few questions regarding nonmilitary vessels and their armaments--before and after the Great War.

1. To what extent would civilian transport captains be able to modify their ships' guns?

Let's face it: the guns on vessels like the Elysium, Poseidon, and Faustus can't defend themselves for sh*t. Could a captain choose to modify the defenses on her vessel if she so chose? What restrictions would the GTA/PVE (or, later, the GTVA) impose on such alterations? Could fighter weaponry be used on a transport's turret hardpoints?

2. What military fighters are available to civilians in the Freespace universe?

It would be rather pointless to have an interstellar economy without having some means to protect it. Fighters like the Loki and Herc Mark II are perfectly reasonable for the duties of convoy escort in the hands of civillians--but what about other fighters? Could a private transport company or a merc outfit have a wing or two of decommissioned Apollos flying around? What about more advanced fighters, like the Valkyrie/Perseus and the Myrmidon?

3. Would decommissioned cruisers be available for appropriation by interested parties?

A cruiser spaceframe can only serve for so long before the day comes when it must retire from military service. What would happen to these vessels, before and after the Great War? Would their components be broken down, recycled, and then made into new vessels? Or would they be sold to private interests? Would Vasudan vessels be available for Terran use, and vice versa?

4. What restrictions would there be on civillian use of beam weaponry?

A photon beam cannon is hardly a pea-shooter. It is understandable, then that the GTVA would be a little leery of their use in the hands of civilians. But how restrictive would use of beam weapons be? The GTM Hippocrates is supposed to be a hospital ship, but even it has an anti-fighter turret and an LTerSlash (however dubious its effectiveness may be). Could the commander of a Triton or an Argo apply for a permit to upgrade her defenses to anti-fighter beams?

5. Which would fringe elements use more often--cruisers or armed transports?

It is known that dissidents show up in Terran and Vasudan space from time to time. What would these pirates and rebels use as their main vessels--cruisers, or armed transports? How likely is it that any one pirate group would be able to get its hands on a cruiser? How possible is it to modify a transport into something more tough and deadly than a giant shoebox with engines, before and after the advent of beam weaponry?

[Droid803]

1. Probably not: even the Military versions have **** guns. Don't expect civilians to get any better. Possibly flak guns might be available, but I don't see anything better than standard blobs, subachs, and flak. Civilians don't go into battle-zones, so being unable to defend themselves for **** is a given. It'd be unrealistic otherwise, to be honest.

2. Lokis? Herc 2s? No. Maybe decomissioned Apollos, Valks, and Angels. Probably stripped down. Do you see civilians flying F-22's?

3. Maybe Fenris and Aten cruisers. Probably nothing more, and probably stripped down at that (no more anti-cap beams).

4. I'd say limited to AAAfs. I doubt Tritons or Argos have the power grid to fire these even. So...AAAfs on those retired Fenris cruisers. Remember, the Hippocrates in maintained by the GTVA, and probably had a wartime refit. Normally it probably wouldn't have its LTerSlash.

5. Probably armed transports (meaning, argos with Flak Guns at most). Pirates probably wouldn't get their hands on a cruiser very commonly - any cruisers they have would likely be from captain-turned-pirates (which somehow avoided getting hunting down), or something pulled from a scrapyard. Rebels, on the other hand, may have more cruisers due to well, defections. (The NTF even had destroyers, but I doubt you're talking about Rebels on that scale).
I'd think it is impossible to modify a transport into a beam cannon platform, but putting some flak guns in to make it a gunboat would be feasible. Do you see any oil tankers with battleship turrets?

[headdie]

ok to points 1 through 4 there is very little to go on, pirate fighters attack you in silent threat mission md-07.fsm but that is as far as it goes

on point 5 I would say transports are more likely I am guessing more readily available, cheaper to run and easier to hide my first choice in this line would be GVT Isis and GVFr Satis, though if you were determined to use a cruiser I would bet the vasudans would love to loose a few GVC Aten once the GVC Mentus came online

about modifications i would imagine that if you could get hold of any fighter cannon you could mount it if you were determined and i suspect the main civilian restrictions would be on missiles and high end cannons.

In FS1 most vasudan civilian type craft seem to be armed with either blob turrets or avengers with their Terran counterparts using ML-16 and avenger (as tabled) so for civilian ownership I would create new slightly less powerful versions of these weapons to use for the mainstream with badguys and "rich" civvies using military grade equipment

As for cruisers i think the GTA/GTVA tend to mothball ships and use them for target practice rather than sell them on but again this is a guess

[Dragon]

5. Probably armed transports (meaning, argos with Flak Guns at most).
I'd think it is impossible to modify a transport into a beam cannon platform, but putting some flak guns in to make it a gunboat would be feasible. Do you see any oil tankers with battleship turrets?

I think that modifying an Argo would be possible by ducttaping a stolen Miojnir onto it.
Where they would get Miolnirs is another question, but something similar to it (maybe custom build), but mounting a lighter cannon would be more plausible.
At the time of FS2, the best fighters civilans will get would be an Apollo and Valkyrie, but ther would be more Angels and even older stuff.
They would be armed with some ML-16 equivalant, perhaps modified to pierce shields.
Also, Avenger cannon, which was standard issue for GTVA at the time of FS1, but it would be expensive.

[SypheDMar]

1. To what extent would civilian transport captains be able to modify their ships' guns?

Too expensive to consider for common folks. I don't even believe that they should be armed.

2. What military fighters are available to civilians in the Freespace universe?

Unshielded FS1 fighters at best. The Silent Threat pirates having shields always irked me.

3. Would decommissioned cruisers be available for appropriation by interested parties?

No. Decommissioned cruisers belong to the museums.

4. What restrictions would there be on civilian use of beam weaponry?

I don't believe that they should even use beams. Even anti-fighter beams are too powerful for civilians.

5. Which would fringe elements use more often--cruisers or armed transports?

Transports. The number of people needed to operate a transport is probably significantly less than a cruiser.


My assumptions include the existence of a hypothetical local police force that's separated from GTVA, and the assumptions assume that the police force has to be greater than any civilian fleet else they be useless.

[Solatar]

Post Great War, I always imagined a civilian police force armed with unshielded fighters and ML-16 Lasers.  I never really could decide whether or not shields were part of fighters, or just kind of "standard issue" for the military.

It's like how not every police/coast guard (not sure which would be analogous) officer wears a bullet proof vest. Maybe a SWAT wing of police fighters may have Hercs with shields and Avengers.

[NGTM-1R]

1. To what extent would civilian transport captains be able to modify their ships' guns?

Expense dictates this is unlikely. Flaks require expendible ammunition stores and hence significant extra danger and modification. High-energy systems like AAA beams would need significant modification and upgrade to power systems which are not designed to handle them.

2. What military fighters are available to civilians in the Freespace universe?

Decommisioned models, most likely. The Apollo and/or Athena would be fairly serviceable escort designs. "Off the shelf" upgrades to drives and power systems would keep them competitive with low-grade military and still be cheap. The spaceframes are mature; their quirks and behaviors and needs are well-known and easily serviced. Energy-based primaries are more likely than Avengers because they do not rely on expendible ammunition. HL-7s are probably the order of the day. Secondaries like old Interceptors and Stilletos as well.

3. Would decommissioned cruisers be available for appropriation by interested parties?

Unlikely. I just don't see how you could convert a military hull to reasonable civilian use that way, not without great expense. Military compartmentalization standards and redundancy directly conflict with civilian concerns for cargo space or passenger accomodations. A cruiser would not be cost-effective for civilian operation.

Also the decommissioning process will see the ship stripped of any classified systems and equipment, which, when you get right down to it, is pretty much everything needed to fight the ship: weapons, engines, sensors, most other electronics. The complete refitting necessary to get the ship into service again is too expensive. It's already scrap, it might as well be treated that way.

There is the possiblity that the GTVA maintains relatively well-conditioned craft as war reserves which one might steal, but such ships would be guarded and not maintained at truly "ready" status. At the least, engines and weapons would be missing small yet critical parts and the supplies of such would be tightly controlled. More likely general age would probably require at least a couple weeks of reconditioning work render to the ship battle-ready over and above the previous problem.

4. What restrictions would there be on civillian use of beam weaponry?

The expense of adding high-energy weaponry to ships not designed for it, and making said weapons both safe and reliable, is the main problem. The Typhon-class indicates this not a simple matter and has defeated on occasion even governmental agencies. Large corporations like RNI may be able to deploy a single beam-armed ship, but are more likely to rely on connections to the GTVA military to supply heavy firepower when needed for the defense of corporate assets.

Mind you that for companies which did or do manufacture beam-equipped craft for the GTVA military, the necessary knowledge will be there to operate said craft during builder's trials or an emergency.

5. Which would fringe elements use more often--cruisers or armed transports?

Armed transports.

[Woolie Wool]

HL-7's are supposedly rather expensive IIRC; I would imagine there might be non-military energy weapon designs available that would probably be more economical to use.

[Kosh]

Unlikely. I just don't see how you could convert a military hull to reasonable civilian use that way, not without great expense. Military compartmentalization standards and redundancy directly conflict with civilian concerns for cargo space or passenger accomodations. A cruiser would not be cost-effective for civilian operation.

Well a cruiser would not be converted into a cargo ship, it has other purposes such as escort, high end transportation. All they need to do is strip it of things civilians aren't allowed to have. During the chaos in the Terran systems after the collapse of the GTA, it wouldn't be surprising if a few of these went "missing". 

There is the possiblity that the GTVA maintains relatively well-conditioned craft as war reserves which one might steal, but such ships would be guarded and not maintained at truly "ready" status. At the least, engines and weapons would be missing small yet critical parts and the supplies of such would be tightly controlled.

A more likely source would be old NTF depots and storage areas.

[NGTM-1R]

Well a cruiser would not be converted into a cargo ship, it has other purposes such as escort, high end transportation. All they need to do is strip it of things civilians aren't allowed to have. During the chaos in the Terran systems after the collapse of the GTA, it wouldn't be surprising if a few of these went "missing". 

Yeah, but you have to maintain them. Theft and long-term use is not practical as cruiser-sized craft have a large logistical "tail". Bigger ships are harder to maintain as more stuff can break down. Unless you have your own factory, your own mines, and your own fuel source, somebody will be able to track who owns it by the raw materials or finished parts needed to maintain it most likely. Particularly if it sees combat, and therefore gets damaged. If you have your own mines, factory, and fuel source, you might as will build your own ship anyways.

And I'm not kidding about stripping out anything considered classified. The ship will be just a hull. It may still have a power system but it won't have a power source. No drives, no reactors, no weapons, no sensors, almost no electronics if any. Even internal communications and life support might be stripped when a ship is decommisioned.

A more likely source would be old NTF depots and storage areas.

Where do you suppose the NTF got theirs, though?

[Woolie Wool]

Coming back to the primary weapons issue, I was thinking that the Avenger could still be more economical than the Subach HL-7, which is known to be expensive as I said:

Until the Shivans appeared with their shield technology, these weapons were considered an unnecessary and costly extravagance. But Great War dogfights against Shivan craft quickly taught the Allies that their ships didn't stand a chance unless they could punch through shields. The HL-7 works superbly against shields of all varieties and has become the standard issue Primary weapon for all Terran fighters and bombers.

Ammunition is generally pretty cheap to make and can be manufactured in massive quantities. If the Avenger is an electromagnetic weapon (which it might be as it uses energy), its ammunition would not have to be anything more than a big hunk of metal. Factories could churn out millions upon millions of Avenger rounds much more economically than they could build HL-7s. Considering the sheer size of larger GTVA freighters, holding them all wouldn't be an issue either.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I think one of the reasons why the military switched to the HL-7 was because they felt that too much space was taken up storing Avenger rounds; space that can probably be used to hold better stuff.

When it comes to a civilian Hippocrates, the most I expect myself to see coming out from it is an AAAf.

As for civilian ships, the Loki, Herc II, Erinyes, Ares, Perseus and Pegasus are definitely out. All bombers are also out, unless if some corporation got lucky and bagged a Zeus or a Medusa. Stripped down Apollos are fine, and maybe a few Hercs and Valkyries.

[SypheDMar]

What if the base price of the Avengers are cheaper than the Subachs but more expensive as time goes on?

[Woolie Wool]

I think one of the reasons why the military switched to the HL-7 was because they felt that too much space was taken up storing Avenger rounds; space that can probably be used to hold better stuff.

Perhaps (maybe that would account for the Herc II's retardedly large missile capacity), but to a civilian owner, a reliable gun that is fairly cheap is more important. I think the HL-7 and Prom R's performance in-universe is supposed to be higher than written in the tables (I'd rather say the tables are wrong rather than the game's characters, anyway--Lieutenant Samsa certainly seemed to hold the Prom R in higher esteem than the table files, and he actually lives and serves in the GTVA rather than sitting in a chair playing a video game about it), and that the Avenger's shield damage is supposed to be a lot less than the tables make it out to be (look at the repeated declaration in the tech description about how it is only marginally effective against shields).

What if the base price of the Avengers are cheaper than the Subachs but more expensive as time goes on?

Unlikely. Bullets are cheap and civilian Avenger rounds don't have to be fully mil-spec anyway, as long as they do some damage and the Avenger fires them without messing up, that's all that is really necessary. The rocket engines and guidance systems are what make missiles rather expensive, the Avenger dispenses with both of those. Aside from the Avenger, there could also be many other weapons never used by the GTVA, perhaps even bastardized ML-16s modified for extra shield damage.

[Thaeris]

Unless you're dealing with mercs/PMCs (which probably wouldn't do too well in the actual FS universe... though they're quite cool in many of our beloved campaigns...), you probably wouldn't see too many decomissioned of anything. For practical purposes, you might consider the (a.) Athena and (b.) Angel, if only because of the enhanced aerospace capabilities we'll assume they have. Being able to land planetside is great from a civilian perspective.

You might consider converted vessels/make-shift fightercraft for private corporations dealing as... or dealing with a tough crowd. Think something like an armed Hermes... it's small, fairly maneuverable, multi-purpose, and quite modular. If you're just dealing with unarmed civilians (aka you're a pirate), something like that would be easy to manage. Heck, it even has a subspace drive... Another option might be the "I built this space ship in my barn!" thing where you get a fighter like the Kulas (as in MotA Kulas). Definately not military grade, but it's still dangerous.

As far as cruiser escorts go, I'd assume the GTVA would act in a similar fashion to the USN guarding convoys with a small warship. A Fenris may not be too frightening to a squadron of heavy fighters or bombers, but it will rip any would-be marauders in makeshift combat craft to ribbons. I suppose if you have a very large corporation you might actually be able to furnish your own cruiser-like vessel. Of course you'd have to be licenced by the GTVA...

As far as weapons go, it really depends. Combat craft go through A LOT of ammunition. Bullets will get expensive really friggin' fast. So, a laser gun like the ML-16 might be the way to go. It's not modern and you can't fight the military with it, but it (or something similar) is "military grade" enough for "entrepreneurs of a certain variety." Also, if you're not supposed to have it, it will leave a much smaller paper trail than having to buy several thousand rounds of ammo here and there.

[Droid803]

I support the use of ML-16's on civillian craft.
I mean, they're harmless against military targets, so let them hit each other with their little pointy sticks

[Wanderer]

1. To what extent would civilian transport captains be able to modify their ships' guns?
Depends... Amount of security needed, how simple it is to modify weapon banks etc. It is far more likelier for ships to modify their armaments than to do anything else. That is IMHO you are much more likely to see heavily armed freighters than to see a single civilian owned fighter.

2. What military fighters are available to civilians in the Freespace universe?
Normal civilians.. most likely none what so ever, with slim possibility for some demilitarized versions of obsolete low grade fighters.
As for equivalents of 'modern' private security companies.. Low numbers of current mainstream fighters. Nothing fancy though.

3. Would decommissioned cruisers be available for appropriation by interested parties?
Depends on the size of the military and their policy. Some militaries might choose to mothball even the most ancient ships just to have (perhaps not exactly) an ace in the hole or reserve fleets. In which case there would be no non-military cruisers. If that was not the case then on the other hand hulls stripped from weapons and electronics could be sold to civilians (assuming military needs any funds it can get to make new ships - wouldn't be happening in wartime though). Also they might be willing to subsidize them with 'military reserve' clause - wouldn't hurt to keep even the older ships in more or less fit condition, but again at least weaponry would be stripped.

4. What restrictions would there be on civilian use of beam weaponry?
Capship beams.. probably none, not even private security companies. Mining beams (assuming there would be such), sure. AAA beams, as these are mainly defensive they might be allowed but would probably be unavailable for most people, high tech, high energy weapon system probably needs lots of maintenance etc.

5. Which would fringe elements use more often--cruisers or armed transports?
Armed transports or stripped cruisers armed like armed transports.


The amount and visibility of piracy or instability would have an effect as well. That is on the border/frontier/unstable areas no one would give a second look at even the most heavily armed merchant as long as they keep their guns pointed away from the officials. However on the more peaceful areas just having a single offensive weapon in a ship might cause very much (most likely) unwanted attention towards the ship and its intentions. As for convoys - they are very useful in protecting the ships but they do slow down the traffic a lot and also cause the convoy start and goal 'ports' to be either unemployed for long periods with occasion work around the clock overtime fevers. Both which are very likely to be extremely unpopular with ship owners (as the ship and the cargo are likely to have been insured they have really got nothing to gain from convoys).

[NGTM-1R]

Ammunition is generally pretty cheap to make and can be manufactured in massive quantities. If the Avenger is an electromagnetic weapon (which it might be as it uses energy), its ammunition would not have to be anything more than a big hunk of metal. Factories could churn out millions upon millions of Avenger rounds much more economically than they could build HL-7s. Considering the sheer size of larger GTVA freighters, holding them all wouldn't be an issue either.

There won't be demand for millions of Avenger rounds. Let's be honest here: who's going to use them? Even a large company isn't going to maintain huge standing forces. A company like RNI might perhaps have twenty-five fighters and forty pilots on the rolls. They exist to provide a scare tactic more than engage in actual combat. Additionally, an electromagnetic weapon or a regular gun is still going to need more raw maintance than a laser or laser-derivative like an HL-7. Railgun rails degrade so rapidly even now, even with supercooling, they're not really practical, and the barrel itself can be used up in very few rounds. Regular guns require regular barrel replacement and inspection of the firing chamber due to stresses of firing.

An HL-7 needs none of these things.

[Killer Whale]

I was of the opinion that pretty much everything we saw in freespace, bar a freighter or two, was military. Tritons, argos and hippocrates are employed by the military and not civilian vessels. Weaponry would be minimal, maybe a couple of guns to discourage an escape pod boarding and hijacking your vessel.
Some gazillionaires might have a cruiser but they'd be extremely expensive both to maintain and to get licensing for as well as having great war era weaponry. Beam weaponry would be a no go for civilians and class A contraband. Pirates would be unlikely to have cruisers and probably wouldn't even exist

Where do you suppose the NTF got theirs, though?

Defection

[Scooby_Doo]

Perhaps there should be a Freespace: Privateer.