Author Topic: Slowboating. Just why not?  (Read 8290 times)

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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
And I-War, which is like 75% Newtonian.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
a.) You need to check your engineering. Whether or not the ships have power to break orbit and stuff like that is irrelevant. They can have the ability to move at realistic fusion drive speeds and it still won't matter to interstellar travel. They do not seem to carry enough fuel.

b.) Subspace is totally irrelevant to this discussion. The issue is whether intersystem transit is realistic using FS designs. The ships probably do not carry enough fuel to make the transit in a reasonable period (within their own operational longevity.) You do, indeed, need a ludicrous fraction of the ship for fuel storage, even with the high specific impulse of a fusion engine (the type of which is left to the imagination.)

c.) The fact that no STL transit to Sol was attempted during Reconstruction probably indicates it is not practical using existing FS ship designs. A specially designed vessel might be able to make the transit.

In the end your decision to ignore in-game speed measurements, while believable, simply opens the door to making up whatever we want. Canonical speed is all we have. Anything else is fanwank.

Go through your, post find every sentence with 'probably', 'ideally', 'hopefully', and remove them. See how the argument holds up.

FreeSpace is a setting defined by subspace travel. The ships do not appear to have the ability to move faster than a few meters per second at sublight speeds. Change that and you need to discard fighters and turn the entire thing into another iteration of Alastair Reynolds or Transhuman Space.

Although mostly intact, your arguments for your points are a little fractured due to the fact that that you've seemed to have changed your opinions slightly from previous discussions. That's fine, but please be sure not to be so seemingly condescending in your response or defense.

That said, there is some merit to your response to point (a.). Standard FS ships would probably never attempt... well, never attempt intersystem travel with fusion drives. If I stated they could, then I take that back. Though, for the record, I don't believe I ever have... A colony ship would be massive, to say the least, and wouldn't be going anywhere fast. If you could cover a light year in 10 years, you'd be doing a pretty good job. That's the only example of a reasonable intersystem-without-subspace travel vessel concievable in FS, and the only flavor of which I'd advocate if necessary.

Point (b.) was born of the fact that we're talking about fuel and power. The argument is primarily based upon the fact that the discussion covers the question of mobility technology in FS. It is a little off-topic in the sense that it's tied to the argument in point (a.), where movement is considered without the use of subspace drives. The only real value to the argument is to validate that, if absolutely necessary, FS ships could move of their own accord. In which, power/fuel usage would be comparably inefficient, but not unreasonalble. In terms of escaping a system to another without subspace, however, you are indeed correct. The fuel fraction aboard a FS ship would not be high enough to yield a reasonable transit velocity between systems.

I feel the economical/political reason for not transiting to Sol during Reconstruction in point (c.) was better laid out than yours, but I agree with your listed sentiments completely. You'd need specialized vessels for a trip like that, and a standard FS fleet (unless it's in "tow and stasis" or something like that) will not make such a journey in common reason.

Your statement about "ignoring in-game speed measurements" does not in fact open the door for making up anything we want... though as every campaign out there (apart from :v: 's campaigns) is fanon anyway, the respective authors would do anything they wanted anyway...  :doubt: A standard FS mod uses standard FS data. That means an Oriion still paruses about at 15m/s, a Leviathan is a turtle, and all the other fun stuff you can recall. It's the mod author's duty to write a workable stroy which meshes with game mechanics - that's FreeSpace. It's no different from retail in that regard.

And now to the last: the first point is absolutely correct. FS wouldn't be FS without subspace. The second part is a grey area, though you could definatively say that the measured speed is a relatavistic value. That aside, it is again a game mechanic that makes the game fun and playable. That's why ships in FS move the way they do. I know you know this well.

The last part of the paragraph in question is your own fanon. The FS-verse is the same so long as it is recognizably so: as long as the fiction can be made to mesh with gameplay in some fashion, it's fine. Story-wise, canon FS only goes into using speeds with a light tread. "This ship is faster" or "this ship is more maneuverable" are about as in-depth as breifings and the like go. The numbers are only viable from the player standpoint: in-game mechanics. Stating that the ship is moving "from this planet to the other without subspace" doesn't break the story - there's no numbers involved as it's just a given. Giving the FS universe a more realistic feel is a help, not a hinderence, and it breaks emersion no less than considering the Orion you're escorting is moving at 15 m/s. The only thing the author needs to be wary of is the execution of the elements involved. Yes, it's fanon. But everything else on this entire board is.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
No. We have canonical, spoken verification of FreeSpace ship speeds. Mission 'Proving Grounds', if I recall correctly.

I don't mean to be condescending, but I've been debating these points for ten years now, and in the end it all simply comes back to the fact that in-game behavior is the only behavior we have. Postulating a separate fluff framework with greatly increased velocities has ripple effects which effectively change the setting into something else entirely.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:59:25 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Hmph. So I missed one.

However, I'm still not mistaken on the story-telling aspect. As long as the elements are coherent, the story works. Relativistic velocities? Bah. There's enough inconsistencies within most sci-fi as it is. Look at trying to define "MGLT" in the Star Wars universe: it's so nebulous that, although a figure is out there to satisfy the nerds out there (myself included), there's no limiting factor present to prevent a SW ship from doing what it wants to do.

I for one like having a more reasonable or realistic environment. Most of the good campaigns do this by some means. BP focuses on the human factor. Derelict emphasizes the environment/setting. If a story focuses on gameplay mechanics that... could be simulated by actual vehicles... but would never be simulated because of raving impracticalites therein, then that story will be horrendous to anyone who looks into it. This isn't ignorance: it's acknowledging the nature of a sci-fi universe which isn't built on real life mechanics. Something real has to be there or the story will flop.

The example you give in the said mission isn't much of anything in that regard. Take it away from the mission and the mission doesn't change. It's merely a game mechanic that was brought into the main fiction. So. What. With all the other "handwavium" floating about FS, it basically does nothing to invalidate my point or prove yours. All it does is attempt to more closely relate the universe :v: created with the universe accessable to the player. In other instances where you have ships in orbit (as Mongoose pointed out), the speed consideration is made negligable again. It is truthful that I can't fully prove my point, but you can't prove yours, either.

*Edit:

I posted this before I saw your edited response. That's a good point you've added as well. I'll again state that the author is really the one in charge of making sure everything is in order. In that regard, I don't necessarily see how we're in such critical disagreement.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 03:27:52 pm by Thaeris »
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
I don't actually understand what point you're trying to make any more.

I feel that I've demonstrated to everyone's satisfaction that sublight travel between systems in FreeSpace is not trivially achievable and may not be within the abilities of existing, canonical FS designs. FS technology probably enables it (depending on how good their environment systems are and how long the ships hold up without maintenance), but it would likely require a significant effort.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
True. We've gone rather off-topic.

The last argument was covering how in-game speeds were rather arbitrary to the story/events from a global campaign perspective as well as how intrasystem travel via normal engines wasn't a rediculous impossibility. Somehow that originally related to traversing light years without subspace drives...  :nervous:
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
What I'm thinking is it sounds like in his opinion, the biggest step for a good campaign is to have a control which remains constant through the mod, whether it be technology, story, gameplay, etc, at least one point needs emphasis.

I think is what I'm seeing.

Very likely I read it wrong though.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Nope, we've got it sorted out, it was more of a physics issue. But thanks.  :)

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Dammit, I got here too late to expand on my earlier point without going off-topic and refuting my modliness.  Rats. :p

But just to throw in one line of clarification, I could have phrased things better by saying that, with the aid of subspace travel, ships are apparently able to achieve orbit around planetary bodies, meaning that their relative speed to said planets is in fact in the realm of the orbital velocity.  However, their engines are only able to maintain a very slow speed in addition to this through the apparent luminiferous aether that fills the FS universe.

(In other words, insert some handwavium and put on blinders to everything that doesn't fit. :p)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Blame it on the aether, man. Blame it on the aether.

Actually, that kind of makes everything make sense. Maybe subspace is the aether.

 

Offline IronForge

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Allright I can't lurk anymore. Gotta say something  :wtf:
The point is NOT to relocate GTVA to SoL. Its to get everyone from SoL OUT of SoL. It doesn't matter if it takes 50 years, a hundred, it doesn't matter at all. Pack a ship full of engines and cryogenic facilities just like the sleeper ship sanctuary in Blue Planet, and head back to earth, pick up everyone 'of value to the alliance', shoot the rest or just leave them to rot (hey there are so far no indications the GTVA was a democracy, seems rather pyramid to me) and get back to whatever system is closest to SoL. Assuming there is no resistance between systems, and the non-newtonian physics we have in fs1 and 2 is due to interferrence from dust.nebulae.planets.other celestials, ships will just keep moving in a straight line.
However if that is NOT the case and in FS world things are... different and we go by the canon, then I suppose you can ram a capship full of engines to go at say... whatever speed is good? Maybe a thousand years, but thats fine because you don't age in a cryogenic tube. Step aboard for the thousand year slumber!!! And hope the rest of the GTVA is still alive somewhere.
And what about in system warp. Is that allright for moving (though very slowly over many many warps) between systems without a node?

As for the saths in capella, I always wondered what happened to them after the supernova, did they survive? Or did the supernova create a jump node for them to exit? POSSIBLY TO SOL? Oh the horror the horror!!!

Also, I don't see why if the shivians should decide to invade again in some theoratical 3rd invasion, be it fs3 or whatever, at the point of defeat, one could just pack everyone (or those who are deemed 'useful to the alliance') into large ships battlestar galactica style and slowboat into nowhere.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
But why in god's name would you want to do any of that (except the last paragraph)?  :confused:

 

Offline IronForge

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
How would you like it if I told you you can never see your kids again.
Then I tell you there is one way. To hop into a cryogenic tube, wait a thousand years, and then see your kids who have also hopped into a tube waitin for you to pick em up, or at least I hope the GTVA has enough tubes for everyone who has relatives on earth?
I mean, how many can there be? The rest of everyone can just stay on earth and rot if they like. But those thousands hundreds of thousands who want to see their kids again?

Yeah after I learnt its LIGHTYEARS away and not LIGHTYEAR away, this argument seems rather stupid, I'll give you that. But as for me, I would be willing to go to sleep for a thousand years just for a chance to see my kids. Nothing is guranteed, I have no way to know if they had hopped into a cryo tube or not. But the hope would be enough to make me do it.
PS: IRL I'm too young to have kids.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
They couldn't see their kids, unless their kids also got into cryo on Earth (or vice versa.)

Transplanting large numbers of people from Earth to GTVA in cryo over centuries seems remarkably unproductive. What do you get out of it?

 

Offline IronForge

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Nothing, it is purely a humanitarian thing.
Quoting self since I edited while you were writing, sorry about that


Yeah after I learnt its LIGHTYEARS away and not LIGHTYEAR away, this argument seems rather stupid, I'll give you that. But as for me, I would be willing to go to sleep for a thousand years just for a chance to see my kids. Nothing is guranteed, I have no way to know if they had hopped into a cryo tube or not. But the hope would be enough to make me do it.

EDIT: OK So post lucifer, I assume the GTVA will have the common sense to OFFER to put those who have family on earth into cryo and send them to SoL, and the GTVA (or now United Earth Alliance or wadever) will offer to put those severed from their families into cryo tubes and wait.

Seems hopeless but some people right now are freezin up their brain when  they die and all...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 12:13:38 am by IronForge »

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Alright I'm going to say it again because it's irritating me.

SoL = Shadows of Lylat.  Starfox conversion for FS2

Sol  = Terran home system.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Responding to the original question; aside from recovering Earth's industrial base and some resources (notably Argon gas... pre-nebula), the only good reason for slowboating back to Sol would be to simply check up on things. Even then, recovery of industrial power isn't really critical- the GTVA demonstrated that they could do fine without Earth, and I'm sure Earth would be ok in isolation.
"I have approximate knowledge of many things."

Ridiculous, the Director's Cut

Starlancer Head Animations - Converted

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Or... FS doesn't make a whole lot of sense. :P
Personally I'm still assuming they jumped to a galaxy far, far away during the supernova.
The Jedi are going to get quite a shock from that.

Oh, I can already see a new series of books. "Luke Skywalker discovers an ancient enemy from a different galaxy that possesses a weapon unlike any other. Will the Skywalker family manage to find a way to defeat the seemingly invincible adversary before every star in the galaxy is destroyed ?"

Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Recut Version
Scene 1: A Sathanas arrives above Naboo and nukes Jar Jar. The audience cries in joy.
Scene 2: Anakin Skywalker, who does not appear in this movie because he is a F-ing child, makes no appearance in this scene either.
Scene 3: This scene establishes that we have no stupid tax dispute but the Republic has to face the Shivans who are appearing out of nowhere.
Scene 4: The Jedi enter a captured Azrael. Windu is killed off instantly in a recreation of the Hallfight cutscene.
Scene 5: Epic space battle with noname fighters. First appearance of Arjuna 1, the legendary Shivan fighter.
Scene 6: The Lucifer bombards Mustafar, turning it into its present form.
Scene 7: OMG what is going to happen now?
THE END


And, as I mentioned in the other thread, it's a great possibility for a custom campaign.
Quote

The GTXCr Blablabla is sent to Sol. When they arrive, the GTVA has already built their portal and reunited with humanity's birthplace. The ship doesn't have the proper authorization codes so it gets blown to pieces.
HLP member 2008-2012 and Syrk:TUW project leader ~2010-2012

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
Wow. Non-serious FTW...  :nervous:

"Slowboating" from Sol might be a decent campaign premice if you create a scenario similar to NGTM-1R's "Fishie" invasion. Of course, the outcome is that Sol gets laid to waste and the Human populace (as well as Vasudans, perhaps?) must escape into the void... [Insert dramatic music here.]

Because of the absence of available nodes, Humanity's remaining fleet must, with the asset of sleeper ships, continue to accelerate out of the system towards Alpha Centauri. The player must vanquish wave after wave of angsty extra-terrestrials...  :nervous:... until the fleet has drifted far away enough from Sol that intrasystem jumps from hostile ships can lo longer pose a threat to the fleeing Alliance ships...

...Despite having the re-imagined BSG's "33" written all over this madness, it might make for an interesting co-op campaign...
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Slowboating. Just why not?
AoA would be somewhat close with the expeditionary fleet, do any campaigns here feature an exodus fleet?