[Kosh]

I'll also throw in that the kind of money we;re talking about with the MIC is measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Even the lobbyists who work for them make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Frankly it's really hard to say no to that kind of money, it gives you real freedom.

[Bobboau]

many of those people who would benefit the most and lose the least are the ones out there trying to shout it down.

they also don't want it forced on them, they view it as socialism and a hand out and they are ideologically opposed to this.

[Nuclear1]

they view it as socialism and a hand out and they are ideologically opposed to this.

Because they're stupid enough to believe the old Cold War propaganda that socialism = communism = hates America. 

Better (the 44 million uninsured) dead then (kinda sorta well not really) Red!

[Bobboau]

Because they're stupid

because your stupid!

[Nuclear1]

Well what else do you want to call them?  Had they even read a book on socialism they'd realize that the Marxist class struggle socialism that leads to communism isn't the one being practiced in most Western countries.  Had they read even the Wikipedia article on social democracy, they'd realize the socialism anyone intends to implement in the US wants to see capitalism and republicanism preserved, but the faults of the former corrected.  

So yes, they're stupid!  And deliberately kept uninformed by Fox and certain politicians.  I swear to God, every time I watch a Teabagger protest, I feel ashamed that these self-centered dumbass bigots live in the same country as me.

[Bobboau]

ok, I get it, your ideology is the only 'smart' one everyone else is just intolerant racists, gotcha.

[Nuclear1]

ok, I get it you ideology is the only 'smart' one everyone else is just intolerant racists, gotcha.

Dude, have you watched a Tea Party protest?

I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with me is a moron.  I'm saying the people who still believe Obama is a Kenyan Nazi socialist Muslim terrorist who wants to implement Soviet-style communism and Nazi eugenics and that the healthcare bill will establish death panels are all morons who need to read a book (or, I dunno, the healthcare bill) rather than just mindlessly spout what they heard on Glenn Beck the night before.

That's what they disgust me--because they're mindless, Cold War-hyped, stupid drones.

[Bobboau]

you are just using this to distract from the fact that the majority of the people who this is intended to benefit are the primary source of opposition to it, that it is being forced on them by people who 'know better'. when this happens internationally it's called imperialism, but when all those foolish rednecks oppose these wonderful progressed ideas it's just shameful.
why don't you go to Iran and try to get them to stop executing homosexuals?

[Nuclear1]

Oh really?  These are spontaneous, grassroots movements, not astroturfed horse**** funded and organized by Fox and FreedomWorks intended to benefit the upper 2% of Americans who will be taxed the heaviest to pay for national healthcare?  Or if they're even grassroots at all, simply not the result of political hysteria fueled by unbelievably outrageous claims by some of either the most incredibly ignorant or the most evilly manipulative of American politicians and news commentators?

Some of these people are Americans with legitimate concerns--how efficient will health care be under the federal government, what effect will reform have on the economy--but they're vastly outnumbered by the town hall-disrupting, deliberately-uninformed, intolerant, hate-your-neighbor-and-America-before-tolerating-Obama majority.

There are proper venues to address healthcare reform and opposition to it--and it does not involve unwarranted, shameless depiction of Holocaust victims, or labeling your movement as an oppressed people like the Iranians. 

But thanks for the strawman on Iran!  That was completely applicable to what we're talking about.

[Bobboau]

oh, so first they were stupid, now they're just manipulated, of course it still doesn't change the fact that they don't want it and you are trying to force it down their throats whether they want it or not because you have a more elite intellect than them and are above being manipulated by politicians and the media..

the Iran comment was not meant to identify those opposed to health care reform as a oppressed minority, it was meant to point out how imposing your will on stupid people was ok, so long as they were white.

[iamzack]

If they don't want it, they could just go ahead and buy private insurance instead of taking the public option.

But see, I just lost my primary health insurance and I'll be losing my other one when I turn 23 and it is highly unlikely that someone with my medical history will ever be able to afford private health insurance (if I can even find someone who will cover me) on their own in the current system. So yeah, I really don't care about the people who are going "waaahhhh, socialism, waaaaahhh, handouts." If they don't want it, they don't have to use it. People who need it shouldn't have to be subject to their tantrums.

[Bobboau]

so you want them to be forced to buy your insurance for you against their will without getting anything in return, I see, how noble of you.

[General Battuta]

Well, they already buy a military, an infrastructure, political campaigns, and god knows what else, much of which (the military in particular) they'll never see any benefit from. Meanwhile, having health care would boost worker productivity and save god knows how much in the long run.

You could argue it's no different from any other taxed expense, and if funding it doesn't involve a tax hike...

[Bobboau]

or maybe these are the same eople who voted for Bush because he cut taxes?

[Nuclear1]

so you want them to be forced to buy your insurance for you against their will without getting anything in return, I see, how noble of you.

I feel ashamed that these self-centered dumbass bigots

Thanks for proving my point.

Or did you actually think people were going to help the 44 million uninsured through their own good graces?

I don't understand.  Do you think these people are lazy or something, or that they deserved the circumstances they live in?  Sure, there might be some just plain lazy people out there--but a lot of these people are going to die unless they have health insurance.  They're victims of an unregulated monster of an insurance industry that puts profit over people's lives.   

Is an extra 2% (probably not even that much) off your paycheck not worth a few thousand lives?

This isn't an issue of stupid versus smart, or left versus right, or socialism versus free market; it's literally life and death.  What the **** is the point of everyone who's given their lives for the US to make it a better place when we can't give nearly 15% of the population access to a doctor?

When people on the other side of the world tell us we're the most greedy country on Earth, I try my best to tell them we're not--we give millions to countries affected by natural disasters, we routinely give gallons of blood...but when our own neighbors are dying, we don't do a damned thing about it.

So if the best argument these guys have against healthcare reform is "I don't wanna pay for it", it disgusts me.  Christ, this isn't social security or unemployment benefits; it's the right to life!

[Scotty]

What the **** is the point of everyone who's given their lives for the US to make it a better place when we can't give nearly 15% of the population access to a doctor?

And to these people who don't want it, the sentiment is "What the **** is the point of everyone who's given their lives for the US to make it a better place when the government can force something upon us like this."

DISCLAIMER:  I am not giving my opinion on this topic with that sentence.  I'm just playing the devil's advocate for right now.

[General Battuta]

The whole point of the government is its ability to compel when necessary.

[Scotty]

"When necessary" is the key phrase there, and obviously the millions who oppose the bill have come to the conclusion (good or bad, immediately or through consideration) that the compulsion is not necessary.

[Nuclear1]

44 million lives aren't necessary?

****, we've destroyed two countries and gotten hundreds of thousands killed in the name of 3,000 people dead...hell, statistically, that many die every month from lack of health coverage.

[Scotty]

44 million lives are as necessary as ANY number of lives.  Fortunately, all 44 million of them will NOT keel over and die if this bill is not passed soon.  Second, please stop accusing me as if I agree with these people.  I think we should have something to that effect.  However, I don't think the bill in question is the way to do that.