[Aardwolf]

laughing smiley != winking smiley/smiley sticking its tongue out

[SpardaSon21]

Yeah, but I think it is an obvious and well-known fact on these forums that all beams pierce shields.  Unless of course you are using Fury's BP 3.6.12 Re-balance which removes the shield piercing but doubles the damage.

[NGTM-1R]

I really don't see any compelling evidence that the Lucifers were mothballed/retired.

I don't see any compelling evidence they weren't. I mean, really people. I can offer one solid fact (we don't see any) and a good, well-thought-out conjecture (cost-based failure) for the retirement, and nobody's tried to even remotely construct an argument for the other posistion. Possibly because without encountering any other Lucifers there's not a starting point, but still.

[The E]

Yes, sure, NGTM-1R, your arguments make a lot of sense...




... provided the Shivans think like humans, which is not indicated anywhere.

Point is, without canon evidence to tell us what is true and what just wild mass guessing, you could very well be wrong.

[Desertfox287]

Yeah, but I think it is an obvious and well-known fact on these forums that all beams pierce shields.  Unless of course you are using Fury's BP 3.6.12 Re-balance which removes the shield piercing but doubles the damage.

Do we know 100% that the Lucifer's shield worked the exact same way? I did know that beams pierced shields, but since the Lucifer's were different, there is a possibility that it may not work the same way. In addition to that, what do we know about shivan engineering besides that it's apparently better than ours? For all we know the shields weren't hard for them to maintain. This is all speculation.

[headdie]

end of the day nobody outside of the team that worked on FS know anything about the Lucifer and or any other ships of the class that might or might not have existed in some obscure back story file that sat on some hard drive that has probably been binned, placed into storage and or recycled.

yes beam weapons might have had the same effect on the Lucifers sheath shields as seen in FS2 but they might not probably didn't set it in canon as it was not necessary for either FS1 or 2 as the Lucifer and beam cannons never met in battle

We do not know if those shields were maintenance, resource or power hungry as it was never discussed probably because in game neither the Terrans or Vasudans figured the shielding out which rendered the point mute and by the end of FS1 they had lost the opportunity to study the technology further.

There might or might not have been more than 1 Lucifer class destroyer, again we will probably never know and again it was never discussed because the question never came up in game.  Yes in game it was speculated, yes the Colossus was built to counter the potential of future Lucifer encounters, lets face it even if the beams didn't penetrate the shields all the Colly had to do was follow it into subspace and pummel the thing into oblivion

if more than one lucifer was built maybe in the thousands of years between the ancient war and the events of FS1/2 the class was decommissioned, maybe they were destroyed one by one, maybe they were just rotated to a section of the universe away from those nasty aliens proved capable of destroying one, maybe they for fill a role in the shivan fleet that normally finds them operating in different areas of space to the Sathanas class ships we will never know

[NGTM-1R]

... provided the Shivans think like humans, which is not indicated anywhere.

Which as I've stated isn't material; my argument is based on raw math and engineering concerns. Pyschology is not relevant.

Or are you claiming the Shivans don't use math or engineering? Heinlein answered that one long before I.

[The E]

Sure they use it. However, they may not draw the same conclusions you do based on the same data.

Also, since we have no clue at all about the Shivan economy, it's pretty futile to make guesses towards the constraints they are operating under.

[General Battuta]

The most parsimonious explanation is probably that Lucifers just aren't deployed against species with beam weapons, since beams pierce shields (and yes, they do, in 100% of canonical beam-shield interactions) and the Lucifer is severely undergunned without its invincibility.

You can argue with the canonical facts all you like, or claim that the SRed weapon setup is 'not canon', or that we don't know if beams would have pierced the Lucifer's shields, but the fact is that those two facts are the closest to canon we have on the issue.

We also know that the GTVA was confident that the Colossus could destroy the Lucifer, and on a narrative level I simply don't think the Colossus would have been a huge red herring.

[Desertfox287]

We also know that the GTVA was confident that the Colossus could destroy the Lucifer, and on a narrative level I simply don't think the Colossus would have been a huge red herring.

The GTVA was confident that the Colossus would protect the GTVA from all threats, so we can't go off their confidence in their ability. To be honest, I will not make assumptions no matter how logical on if beams would have pierced the Lucifer's shields. I just stated a different way of looking at it, and unless  says anything about it, we can't say anything in full confidence. I do believe, for the most part, that any ship with beams can take down the Lucifer. I just don't say that as a undisputed fact.

[General Battuta]

That's all fine and dandy, but it does nothing to change the fact that the only evidence we have points towards beams piercing the Lucifer's shields, and not away from said fact.

No assumptions involved.

[NGTM-1R]

Sure they use it. However, they may not draw the same conclusions you do based on the same data.

If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?

Again we're back to Heinlein. "Any race that can build spacecraft is not stupid."

Also, since we have no clue at all about the Shivan economy, it's pretty futile to make guesses towards the constraints they are operating under.

Economic restraints are unnecessary to the argument. This is terms of raw efficency. Admittedly, there's good evidence the Shivans aren't interested in detail efficency (their fighter guns), but a destroyer is several rungs up the ladder of noticeablity.

[The E]

If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?

Depends on what the Shivan motivations are. If the Lucy is basically some sort of intelligence test (there was a B5 ep that dealt with a similar concept), designed to find out if the target is advanced enough to destroy her, or just advanced enough to be too dangerous to be allowed to continue living. Under that concept, they may say that it was a successful test.

Economic restraints are unnecessary to the argument. This is terms of raw efficency. Admittedly, there's good evidence the Shivans aren't interested in detail efficency (their fighter guns), but a destroyer is several rungs up the ladder of noticeablity.

Oh, yes. But does that mean it's important to the Shivans? Bottom line, from my POV, is that we have no clue at all at what scale the Shivans operate, or think on. You are assuming that a Lucifer would mean the same thing to them as an Orion would mean to the GTA. This is basically unknowable.

[Desertfox287]

That's all fine and dandy, but it does nothing to change the fact that the only evidence we have points towards beams piercing the Lucifer's shields, and not away from said fact.

No assumptions involved.

I wasn't trying to change that fact. Just saying that I'm not willing to stand behind any theory. But at the same time, I did acknowledge in my post that it's more likely that they could.

[Scotty]

Sure they use it. However, they may not draw the same conclusions you do based on the same data.

If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?

Again we're back to Heinlein. "Any race that can build spacecraft is not stupid."

Could you please point me to the part of canon that shows that the Shivans know what destroyed the Lucifer, or that they even know it was destroyed at all?

[High Max]

The most parsimonious explanation is probably that Lucifers just aren't deployed against species with beam weapons, since beams pierce shields (and yes, they do, in 100% of canonical beam-shield interactions) and the Lucifer is severely undergunned without its invincibility.

Not really since it is untouchable by everything else, including bombers. If the Lucifer is vulnerable, then all Shivan ships without shields that are smaller are much worse off since all weapons can harm them and not only beams.

@Nightmare: by your logic, they would have mothballed all Shivan ship classes that the Alliance has destroyed at least once, but yet we keep seeing weak ships like the Cain class in battle, and they have not been mothballed. So either there really was only one in existance, or the others simply didn't show up in FS2 since they wouldn't want to risk losing more of those special ships and by a supernova, and only necessary ships were put at risk. The Shivans only intended to destroy the star and not go on a full scale invasion. Why put the more special Lucifer class ships in the line of a supernova when they aren't needed to destroy the star and you can use the less special and no doubt more common ships, like the Ravanas and smaller vessels, which are sufficient, as distractions?

[General Battuta]

Not if the Lucifer is also resource intensive and undergunned for its size.

[NGTM-1R]

Could you please point me to the part of canon that shows that the Shivans know what destroyed the Lucifer, or that they even know it was destroyed at all?

Silent Threat.

The GTVA is aware of the success of the mission to destroy the Lucifer. (They even reuse the FS1 end cutscene to show this, and you could still count 16 surviving GTA and PVN fighters in it.) There are significant Shivan forces left after the destruction of the Lucifer who are also probably aware of the battle and its outcome...or they're really stupid.

Depends on what the Shivan motivations are. If the Lucy is basically some sort of intelligence test (there was a B5 ep that dealt with a similar concept), designed to find out if the target is advanced enough to destroy her, or just advanced enough to be too dangerous to be allowed to continue living. Under that concept, they may say that it was a successful test.

Admittedly quite possible, but the situation we're dealing with is more along the lines of the episode with the Stribe.

Oh, yes. But does that mean it's important to the Shivans? Bottom line, from my POV, is that we have no clue at all at what scale the Shivans operate, or think on. You are assuming that a Lucifer would mean the same thing to them as an Orion would mean to the GTA. This is basically unknowable.

No such assumption is required; efficency is a basic goal of all living things. This is basically arguing that sentient species will knowingly sustain a bad ship/weapon/product in service when there is an alternative. I tend towards the assumption that the Shivans probably had nigh-unlimited resources too, but that's not terribly germane.

The assumption that's necessary to make would instead be at what level do the Shivans cease to have any sort of concious control over what they use. Considering individual Shivans themselves are apparently cybernetically enhanced, this would place the level at which they can conciously control such things below that of a destroyer. If the Lucifer remains in service, it is because something is preventing its being replaced.

@Nightmare: by your logic, they would have mothballed all Shivan ship classes that the Alliance has destroyed at least once, but yet we keep seeing weak ships like the Cain class in battle, and they have not been mothballed. So either there really was only one in existance, or the others simply didn't show up in FS2 since they wouldn't want to risk losing more of those special ships and by a supernova, and only necessary ships were put at risk. The Shivans only intended to destroy the star and not go on a full scale invasion. Why put the more special Lucifer class ships in the line of a supernova when they aren't needed to destroy the star and you can use the less special and no doubt more common ships, like the Ravanas and smaller vessels, which are sufficient, as distractions?

You're not reading my posts, so I'll try to summarize it again, though I doubt you'll read that either. It usually requires a degree of effort to destroy a Cain. You can't take it down by 20% hull and watch it do the rest itself. Similarly you can't pit sixteen GTVA fightercraft against forty Shivan plus the Cain and usually expect to win.

You can do that with the Lucifer because the environment in which it's typically going to be destroyed strips its escorts of their strongest defenses, leaving them vunerable, and taking out the Lucifer's reactors does not require inflicting major damage on the structure of the ship itself. We see a lot of Cains die, sure, but they die relatively harder.

[High Max]

Yes, but I was referring to Cains being so easy to destroy with warship weapons, like beams, but even if the Lucifer is vulnerable, it is still harder. The GTVA will likely not sacrifice another node to destroy another Lucifer. I was just reminded of those reactors because you mentioned them and I didn't give them much thought, but hitting 5 reactors is still difficult with warships, and I think the Lucifer was lacking armament for the sole purpose of gameplay balance and making it possible for you and your wingmen to have a fighting chance. But now that you brought up the reactors, it is possible that they didn't bring in another Lucifer also because they didn't want the GTVA to blow another one up in subspace and planned to destory the nodes to T/V space with the supernova, but the Lucifer just doesn't seem like a good tool for what the Shivans were doing in FS2.

[IronBeer]

@Max- The destruction of the node was an unintended and unforeseen consequence of the Lucifer's demise. Even if GTA command had known about the destabilizing effect a large explosion would have on subspace stability, they likely would have authorized the strike in the Sol subspace corridor anyways. It was either that, or lose Earth.  Tough decision, huh? [/sarcasm]

Further, the Bastion was originally intending to engage the Lucifer in subspace alongside the strike force, but the Lucy simply had too much of a head start for the Bastion to catch up. But, if we assume for a moment that the Bastion had made it into subspace alongside our wingmen, our destroyer could simply have pummeled the Lucifer into oblivion by staying out of her forward firing arc.

Regarding armament, (this may sound like a digression at first, but bear with me) have you ever gone up against the Gigas in Inferno (or any mod that features it)? If not, let me fill you in about an interesting design feature- its piss-poor point defenses compared to its godly fleet weapons, focused in the forward arc. Why would a 26-km long doomship not pack decent point defense weapons? Because it does not need them. Strike craft literally can not cause significant damage to such a monstrous ship. And here we have the parallel to the Lucifer. Her point defenses may not be that strong by FS1 standards, but that's because they do not need to be strong- her shield renders strike craft attacks in realspace futile, and her forward guns force capital ships to flee or be destroyed.

It is entirely possible that the Shivans did not anticipate an attack during subspace transit- the failure of large ship shielding under those circumstances could have convinced Shivan command (or whatever they go with) that the added cost and complexity of shields for capital vessels was not worthwhile if they could be bypassed.

Oh, and the supernova would not have destroyed any subspace nodes. Just everything in Capella.