[DOCTOR DOOM!!!]

The shivans probably had time to overrun the Gamma Drax-Nebula node but I do believe the GTVA had time to pop the Capella node!

[General Battuta]

No, I actually do mean the Gamma Draconis-Capella node.

Getting all those meson bombs in place probably took considerable time.

[Black Wolf]

I don't think there was the time, even if mesons were readil available. By the time they rescued Snipes and discovered the sheer number of juggernauts, and accepted inevitable defeat the Shivans had alreasy gained too strong of a foothold in Capella. After all, prior to the second mission of the second SOC loop, as far as the GTVA knew they had a viable method of eliminating Sathanas juggernauts. One more might not have been seen as a neccesarily war-winning advantage for the Shivans the way 80 more so obviously were.

[Outlawstar15a2]

better question, how did the lucifer even know which planets were the homeworlds?  that wasn't ever even touched in cannon.  we went from "we have no reason to believe the shivans know the location of our home system" to "this is not the direct route to sol, which should divert the shivans from our true intent" to "the shivans have finally determined the location of sol".
 

It's very likely from a military standpoint the Shivans were monitoring the Terrans and Vasudan communications for a very long time. I believe they did the same with the ancients.

Supporting facts:

-The Shivans communicate entirely in the electro-magnetic spectrum. So it would be very easy for them to hack radio based systems.
-The Shivans seemed to be very adept in Terran and Vasudan military doctrine. Several times they took advantage of their superior maneuverability over the Terrans and Vasudans moving as if they knew certain fleets were of little importance.
-The Shivans knew the locations of both Vasuda Prime and Earth. However it needs to be stated that in FS1 they make mention that the Shivans are searching for the location of Sol and then later on that they are narrowing the search down. Perhaps they hacked the Allied communications channel but could only decipher a general location and had to do a similar search for Vasuda Prime?
-The Shivans have no interest in planets. This tells me they are both very well off logistically speaking and that they do not need the vast sums of info planets often contain. It also tells me their war is one of extermination not conquest.
-The Shivans, like anyother force would be unable to fight a effective war without certain info beforehand which cascades back to number 1 and 2.

It is very very likely the Shivans destroyed innumerable galactic empires between the Ancient's time and our own. They probably have a very well developed military battle plan. However I think the Lucifer fleet was merely a scouting force. It is stated in FS2 that the Shivan ships of the second war are vastly superior technologically and militarily to the FS1 era ships. To me this means that the Shivan scouting force did it's job, perhaps to research the massive Sub-Space disturbances encountered. And probably were to be the first attack wave, was defeated, and the Shivans assembled the second armada and waited for a good time to strike. I think the second fleet was a full battle fleet designed purely for annihilation. This is evident because the second armada had a much better balanced roster of ships in it. Including carriers, destroyers, planet-killers, cruisers, frigates, corvettes, etc.

Also without ever having been defeated before encountering the Alliance the Shivans would have at least 10,000+ years of military supremacy. They most likely would have allowed their fleets to stagnate technologically speaking and their military philosophies would have stagnated as well. As they have no need to adapt (why fix that which isn't broken). This complacency is what doomed them to defeat in the First Great War. It is unclear to be if I can claim we won the Second Great War. But they disappeared and we are still here, so maybe yes? So the ships we saw in both wars their designs is most likely at least 10,000 years old. As for before the Shivans met the Ancients? It's stated in game they never knew defeat before it is very likely the Shivans have been conquering for hundreds of thousands of years. I believe the Shivans have a large galactic empire of their own in another galaxy I don't buy they were birthed and sustained in Sub-Space as there is nothing to live off in that universe.

[Lucika]

I've got a question: why was Capella special?
As I was thinking, we have to have a sun in the binary system, right? And probably some of the systems beyond weren't nebulas either (not to mention the possibility of a third way out from the initial nebula), I guess. If so, the Shivans had at least some suns to use for their weird doings at the end of the game - but if so, why were they running down to Capella? Why was Capella so special?

[QuantumDelta]

I've got a question: why was Capella special?
As I was thinking, we have to have a sun in the binary system, right? And probably some of the systems beyond weren't nebulas either (not to mention the possibility of a third way out from the initial nebula), I guess. If so, the Shivans had at least some suns to use for their weird doings at the end of the game - but if so, why were they running down to Capella? Why was Capella so special?

Size, Temperature, Mass, Heat...
if you'll notice there are two other very-relevant-to-shivan-campaigns stars mentioned in FS canon that are extremely similar to Capella..

[Kopachris]

I'm personally all for the "allowing other species to thrive" idea.  Just wait until the GTVA opens up a Knossos portal to a system with a more primitive, but intelligent species.  Uh, oh, here come the Great Preservers. 
Quote from Endgame cutscene (FS1):

I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but they are also the Great Preservers. That is why, when we moved into space, there was no one powerful enough to kill us.

Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.

When the GTVA finally finds another intelligent race on a slower evolutionary path in some previously uncharted system, the Shivans will utterly eliminate the Terran and Vasudan races.  Just another day at the office...

[IronBeer]

When the GTVA finally finds another intelligent race on a slower evolutionary path in some previously uncharted system, the Shivans will utterly eliminate the Terran and Vasudan races.  Just another day at the office...

I personally must disagree with that viewpoint. The Shivans to me are the "Great Preservers" in that they only preserve themselves by killing anything that could be a threat to them- AKA anybody who figures out how to use Subspace.

[General Battuta]

I'm actually with Kopachris here - I think that's a chunk of FS canon which is very often overlooked but also very critical.

Maybe supplies the 'bigger problem' :V: hinted at too.

[TrashMan]

Great Perservers my a**. What the hell are they preserving?

They "protect" less developed races from more developed ones, only to annihilate them once they develop enough.
"I'll save you today so I can kill you tomorrow!" Yeah...real noble from the shivies

[General Battuta]

Not at all. If a species were to develop in a manner which suggested it was cooperative, rather than inclined to suppress all other species it met (like the Ancients), it might be spared (as indeed we might have seen in FS2.)

[Mongoose]

Exactly.  By the end of the Terran-Vasudan War, both species were on the path to, if not quite mutual extinction, then at least complete economic collapse.  From the Shivans' point of view, if such a thing can be comprehended, both looked like the same sort of warmongers that the Ancients had been, and so both were worthy of annihilation; indeed, it was only via a transformation from a state of war into mutual cooperation that the Shivan fleet was defeated.  Note that the Shivans of FS2 made no real attempt to move into GTVA space beyond Capella (and that lone Sathanas), suggesting if nothing else that they did not view Terrans and Vasudans in the same light as the Lucifer fleet did.

[General Battuta]

I say, good sir, I find your assessment in accord with my own!

[TrashMan]

First post!

Welcome to the HLP forums DOCTOR DOOM.
In Ye Olde Days there was a whole greeting speech with flamethrowers and shivans, but we don' use that anymore. Then we used to fry newbs with the:

WELCOME BEAM..but these days we mostly say hi.

So enjoy your stay, and please don't try to conquer us.

[TrashMan]

Not at all. If a species were to develop in a manner which suggested it was cooperative, rather than inclined to suppress all other species it met (like the Ancients), it might be spared (as indeed we might have seen in FS2.)

Meh. What gives shivans the right to annihilate whole other species?
Do we have any evidence that shivans don't destroy species regardless of how friendly they are?
After all, didn't we try to communicate with them?
What's it to them anyway? Why do they care? And why complete annihilation?
It's not like species are a group mind that all share the same values and goals.

There's really nothing "just" about the shivans.

[General Battuta]

1. Right of might.

2. Yes we do; they didn't try to destroy us in FS2.

3. Indeed we did, and lo and behold they left us alone.

4. They try to preserve the diversity of the universe to prevent monoculture.

5. Do we know that?

[OllieG]

It's not like species are a group mind that all share the same values and goals.

If the Shivans are a hive-mind, it's very likely that they don't understand this concept - every action by every member of a species would be construed as guided by the central intelligence and therefore the responsibility of the species as a whole.  The idea that Shivans don't understand the concept of a race of individuals would actually explain a lot about their motives and behavior in both games.  Remember, no one had ever communicated with them, they had no reason to change this conception.  Orson Scott Card made a great point about hive consciousness in his Ender books - the Buggers didn't realize that the individual humans they were killing were unique minds that were permanently destroyed along with their physical bodies.  Shivan tactics are pretty well explained by this view - they went for the home planets because that's where the "central intelligence" would most likely be located.

That's probably why they took Bosch away - he's the first entity they'd met in a very long time who communicated with them in terms they considered meaningful.  Either they concluded that he was a center of control for the human race (which is true to some extent, given his leadership position), or they realized that they were dealing with a race of individuals and wanted to study them.  Either way, Bosch (and anyone else who operated the ETAK device) would be the only ones who registered "individual" to them (in terms of being a distinct consciousness), so killing the rest of the crew wasn't a big deal.  That would also explain Capella, at least to an extent.  The Shivans realized that human minds were moving around on ships, which meant that destroying the planets wasn't enough, they had to wipe out the entire system.  What better way to do that than nova the star? 

[TrashMan]

1. Right of might.

Which is no real right

2. Yes we do; they didn't try to destroy us in FS2.

We have no idea what they were trying to do in FS2. Remember, the nodes were collapsed? Maybe they weren't in a hurry? Maybe they would have wiped the GTVA later?

3. Indeed we did, and lo and behold they left us alone.

We tried in FS1, they attacked
Bosch communicated with them in FS2, thy still boarded his ships and killed almost everyone, and they CONTINUE to attack the GTVA after that.
They didn't really left us alone, we sealed the nodes.

4. They try to preserve the diversity of the universe to prevent monoculture.

You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.

5. Do we know that?

Are you saying the shivies assume all species they encountered are like robots? That all of them share the same goals and ideas and EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM needs to be exterminated?

[General Battuta]

*shrug* I think I've made the point clearly enough. Although:

You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.

If those civilizations are wiping out other civilizations? Yes you do.

[Kopachris]

When the GTVA finally finds another intelligent race on a slower evolutionary path in some previously uncharted system, the Shivans will utterly eliminate the Terran and Vasudan races.  Just another day at the office...

That is, if we show the intention of subduing or crushing the friendly, less advanced fish-peoples.  If we just leave them alone, let them evolve on their own, welcome them peacefully to the wide universe when they finally develop advanced space travel, then the Shivans will likely leave us alone as well.

But the Shivans' specific motive...?  Maybe they just don't like war.  Maybe war destroys space.  Only [V] knows.