Author Topic: Why you should never talk to the police  (Read 12763 times)

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Offline Rian

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I always tell the cops everything. Since I do nothing illegal (oh wait, I do speed sometimes), what's the difference?

If the police are corrupt, it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?

You could try watching the video before commenting. It answers your questions pretty well.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:15:09 pm by Rian »

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I always tell the cops everything. Since I do nothing illegal (oh wait, I do speed sometimes), what's the difference?

If the police are corrupt, it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?

You could try watching the video before commenting. It answers your questions pretty well.

Oh I did, still doesn't change my position.

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Police don't mind arresting people who haven't done anything illegal.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
It's not that you shouldn't talk to the police; it's that you shouldn't make statements to the police.  Important distinction.  Talking to law enforcement as a complaintant is absolutely necessary.

Another good recommendation is never to consent to search.  If they have the legal grounds for search, they don't need your consent.  If they ask for consent, they do not have the grounds.  Similarly, if you DO consent, that consent can be withdrawn.  Goes for searches and interviews.

I say this as an active member of law enforcement.  LE's job (in Common Law countries) is to gather information, and press charges if the accumulation of that information indicates that a crime has been committed.  That's what all the political niceties of "protect," "serve," etc boil down to - identify crimes, gather all evidence obtainable, and file charges.  This is great if you're a victim; this is not so great if you're under active investigation.  Know your Constitutional/Charter rights and obtain legal counsel when you have the right to it, even if you are completely innocent of wrongdoing.

As for the negative anecdotal commentary about police - it's unfortunate that people have these attitudes, and it's unfortunate that a relative few unprofessional officers inspire such hatred in members of the public.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I always find that the same people who hate the police are generally the first ones to start whining about wanting the police to help when something happens to them.

The same people with a "Don't talk to the cops" attitude are the first to complain that the cops don't do anything while simultaneously holding an attitude that prevents witnesses coming forwards. 
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Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I always find that the same people who hate the police are generally the first ones to start whining about wanting the police to help when something happens to them.

The same people with a "Don't talk to the cops" attitude are the first to complain that the cops don't do anything while simultaneously holding an attitude that prevents witnesses coming forwards.  

I think everyone wants police to help, but this isn't a fairyland. For example, I was about 11 or so when me and a friend called the police after a guy who drugged out was trying to smash our door in. After they had arrived an hour later after he was gone, the one officer they sent had no real interest in taking witness accounts. Rather, the officer, however, quickly became more interested in whether I was citizen of this country.

From witness to suspect, at the bat of an eye, and doing this to a pre-teen. This is why I hate police - My first experience was negative, and my second was horrible. I've seen the way they treat people, I know the way they function more like a mafia than a public, accountable instrument of the state, and how they put on PR stunts to pretend that they're somehow accountable, when everyone knows it's a lie. They beat people, mistreat people, and actively subvert justice whenever it suits them and they feel they can get away with it... But we're hypocrites when we advise others not to play into their nazi routines that they pull on innocent people, because at the same time we demand them to do their job in a professional way?

It's Backwards Day in logic-land it seems...  :doubt:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:53:01 pm by Nemesis6 »

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police

I think everyone wants police to help, but this isn't a fairyland. For example, I was about 11 or so when me and a friend called the police after a guy who drugged out was trying to smash our door in. After they had arrived an hour later after he was gone, the one officer they sent had no real interest in taking witness accounts. Rather, the officer, however, quickly became more interested in whether I was citizen of this country.

From witness to suspect, at the bat of an eye, and doing this to a pre-teen. This is why I hate police - My first experience was negative, and my second was horrible. I've seen the way they treat people, I know the way they function more like a mafia than a public, accountable instrument of the state, and how they put on PR stunts to pretend that they're somehow accountable, when everyone knows it's a lie. They beat people, mistreat people, and actively subvert justice whenever it suits them and they feel they can get away with it... But we're hypocrites when we advise others not to play into their nazi routines that they pull on innocent people, because at the same time we demand them to do their job in a professional way?

It's Backwards Day in logic-land it seems...  :doubt:

It's important to note that it is within the rights of police to see your ID - and determine if you're a US citizen. Otherwise the rights of a citizen don't apply. I don't agree with that, but it's the way the law works.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
It's also Over-Generalization Day in the real world, it looks like.

You're local police department may not be the shining example of a good department, but that doesn't mean the entire organization is "a mafia."

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Cops have never been anything but nice to me, even when they pulled me over for speeding.

  
Re: Why you should never talk to the police
My county has a horrible Sheriff's Department.  Part of that can be blamed on the former Sheriff, Michael Carona (recently convicted in federal court for witness tampering), and probably part of it on the fact deputies spend six months in jail duties before they can go out on the streets.  I'm guessing those six months color their perceptions somewhat.
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Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
It's also Over-Generalization Day in the real world, it looks like.

You're local police department may not be the shining example of a good department, but that doesn't mean the entire organization is "a mafia."

But it is. The Mafia has Omertá, and the police have the Blue Code of Silence as I mentioned. This is why I pass judgement on all of them - They are all guilty to some extent because their entire culture is corrupted. In place of a boss, they have the law, which is whatever they want it to be, whenever they want. To be in the right, they need only invoke its paragraphs or its mere name. "In the name of the law", anyone? The only time it's not, is either when the police are taken to court after an absolutely unambiguous slam-dunk case against them, like them slamming some guy's head into plexiglass with four of their own video cameras filming, just because he asked for a complaint form at the front desk(This is a real-case scenario), or when they've failed to destroy any evidence of their own wrongdoing, e.g; smashing mobile phones of people filming them, destroying their own tapes, and dragging the witnesses in for "interrogation", or "interview" as officer James Brook pointed out in the video.

Come to think about it, the blue code of silence can also be compared to how cults work -- Those who speak out against the cult, from within, are admonished and/or shunned, but from the outside, they're a perfectly respectable group, but the story is much different on the inside.

From another perspective, they can also be compared to lobbyists. Watch out, another example coming. Where I live, in Denmark, police previously needed reasonable suspicion to stop and search someone, just like in America. However, after a low-intensity drug-related gang war flared up, this basic right -- Being protected from unreasonable searches, was gone. This was done in such a way that all major population centers were designated as so-called "search zones", where police didn't need any reason to stop and search people. Danish law specifically allows small, precisely defined zones of that kind within cities, like certain bad neighborhoods, parks, or whatever. On the other hand, it also specifically, in no uncertain terms, forbade such zones to be expanded to cover entire cities. So as I said, the law is what the police want it to be, whether by police working to get it changed, or them just making it up on the spot.


 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Quote
In place of a boss, they have the law, which is whatever they want it to be, whenever they want.

Bull****.  The law is written nowadays, so it doesn't change at the drop of a hat. 

Quote
To be in the right, they need only invoke its paragraphs or its mere name. "In the name of the law", anyone?

Saying "In the name of the law" means exactly **** unless they can back it up.  As stated, you don't have to cooperate unless they have a warrant of some kind.  Judges don't just hand out warrants for nothing, either.

Quote
Where I live, in Denmark

Okay, stop right there.  I'm not exactly sure how you can speak against the entirety of police forces everywhere if you only have Denmark as an example.

Quote
this basic right -- Being protected from unreasonable searches, was gone.

Granted, I know you're talking Denmark here, but your rant against all police everywhere falls apart unless you think they can all do this (which they can't ever do in America, without consent or a warrant).

Quote
So as I said, the law is what the police want it to be, whether by police working to get it changed, or them just making it up on the spot.

So far, this example only holds water in Denmark, where I'm still not convinced the police determine both what the law is and how to enforce it.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police

But it is. The Mafia has Omertá, and the police have the Blue Code of Silence as I mentioned. This is why I pass judgement on all of them - They are all guilty to some extent because their entire culture is corrupted. In place of a boss, they have the law, which is whatever they want it to be, whenever they want. To be in the right, they need only invoke its paragraphs or its mere name. "In the name of the law", anyone? The only time it's not, is either when the police are taken to court after an absolutely unambiguous slam-dunk case against them, like them slamming some guy's head into plexiglass with four of their own video cameras filming, just because he asked for a complaint form at the front desk(This is a real-case scenario), or when they've failed to destroy any evidence of their own wrongdoing, e.g; smashing mobile phones of people filming them, destroying their own tapes, and dragging the witnesses in for "interrogation", or "interview" as officer James Brook pointed out in the video.

Come to think about it, the blue code of silence can also be compared to how cults work -- Those who speak out against the cult, from within, are admonished and/or shunned, but from the outside, they're a perfectly respectable group, but the story is much different on the inside.

From another perspective, they can also be compared to lobbyists. Watch out, another example coming. Where I live, in Denmark, police previously needed reasonable suspicion to stop and search someone, just like in America. However, after a low-intensity drug-related gang war flared up, this basic right -- Being protected from unreasonable searches, was gone. This was done in such a way that all major population centers were designated as so-called "search zones", where police didn't need any reason to stop and search people. Danish law specifically allows small, precisely defined zones of that kind within cities, like certain bad neighborhoods, parks, or whatever. On the other hand, it also specifically, in no uncertain terms, forbade such zones to be expanded to cover entire cities. So as I said, the law is what the police want it to be, whether by police working to get it changed, or them just making it up on the spot.


Nothing we say will change your mind, because you've already made it up.

You've provided no concrete evidence, and your argument appears overgeneralized and paranoid.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I always tell the cops everything. Since I do nothing illegal (oh wait, I do speed sometimes), what's the difference?

If the police are corrupt, it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?

You could try watching the video before commenting. It answers your questions pretty well.

Oh I did, still doesn't change my position.

The general point of the video was that speaking to police (when not reporting something) without a lawyer present cannot possibly help you.  The video gives several very good scenarios (which are backed up by an officer right then and there) that prove it.

The general point of your post was that, since you're good, you have nothing to fear from people whose job is to put other people behind bars using any means necessary.  Which history shows us is completely wrong.

Cops have never been anything but nice to me, even when they pulled me over for speeding.

For clarification purposes, are they being polite, or nice?  Because there's a pretty significant difference between the two.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I always tell the cops everything. Since I do nothing illegal (oh wait, I do speed sometimes), what's the difference?

If the police are corrupt, it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?

You could try watching the video before commenting. It answers your questions pretty well.

Oh I did, still doesn't change my position.

The general point of the video was that speaking to police (when not reporting something) without a lawyer present cannot possibly help you.  The video gives several very good scenarios (which are backed up by an officer right then and there) that prove it.

The general point of your post was that, since you're good, you have nothing to fear from people whose job is to put other people behind bars using any means necessary.  Which history shows us is completely wrong.

Cops have never been anything but nice to me, even when they pulled me over for speeding.

For clarification purposes, are they being polite, or nice?  Because there's a pretty significant difference between the two.

Really? How so? To me, polite is nice

 

Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Quote
In place of a boss, they have the law, which is whatever they want it to be, whenever they want.

Bull****.  The law is written nowadays, so it doesn't change at the drop of a hat.  

Quote
To be in the right, they need only invoke its paragraphs or its mere name. "In the name of the law", anyone?

Saying "In the name of the law" means exactly **** unless they can back it up.  As stated, you don't have to cooperate unless they have a warrant of some kind.  Judges don't just hand out warrants for nothing, either.

Quote
Where I live, in Denmark

Okay, stop right there.  I'm not exactly sure how you can speak against the entirety of police forces everywhere if you only have Denmark as an example.

Quote
this basic right -- Being protected from unreasonable searches, was gone.

Granted, I know you're talking Denmark here, but your rant against all police everywhere falls apart unless you think they can all do this (which they can't ever do in America, without consent or a warrant).

Quote
So as I said, the law is what the police want it to be, whether by police working to get it changed, or them just making it up on the spot.

So far, this example only holds water in Denmark, where I'm still not convinced the police determine both what the law is and how to enforce it.


I think you're misunderstanding me a bit here. When I say that it changes like that, I mean in practice, in situations like "You have to let us in, it's the law!" - "But you don't have a warrant and I don't know what this is about" - "OPEN THE DOOR OR WE WILL FORCE IT OPEN!". That's what I mean when I talk about police making up the law on the spot -- They're calm and composed, relying on people being ignorant. If people are not, they will try to intimidate. The way I see it, and this may be very flawed, the law regarding police is what they want it to be, because they're not held accountable, and that's my biggest, and possibly only real problem with them. If they were held accountable for their actions, all their other problems would be easily fixed. The thing about police not being able to do searches without a warrant, etc, it's all well and good, but you'd be naive to think that police are actually bound by this. They might get busted over it once in a while, but you make it sound like there is absolute adherence to rules like this, and from what I've seen and read about American police in particular, that is not always the case.

As far as the rest of the world goes, I have looked a lot into this actually. In England for example, there was the case of Ian Tomlinson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

Before that video came out, this lying sack of dung went on TV to lie about the incident, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4OfBcg9xy0

There's another video out there, showing more of his lies, like that of protesters blocking the ambulance, which was actually done by POLICE. I've spent a lot of time researching this, to question whether this was the case elsewhere. For a lot of examples of British police, check this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6V3oUoffCE

I can continue to cite examples until the cows come home(that expression doesn't make sense?), but I think you get my point; that the problem is shared by all police forces, and that's why it's best to just not talk to them. There will be good and bad cops, and your right to remain silent is your protection from them both. One thing I noted was Blue Lion's comment, about the cops he's met being nice, because that's another game they can, and do play - Good cop, bad cop.

On a side note, my mind is indeed made up on this issue, but I have based my decision on the experience I have gained from researching the issue. The only compelling argument against it I have heard is "well they're gonna assume that you're a criminal because only someone with something to hide wouldn't talk to the police", and that argument is just so absurd, and the fact that it's true; that this will make police suspicious, supports my case even more in a strange, paradoxical way. If that's how the police thinks, any half-brained moron should be able to work out that the sensible reply would be "thank you but no thank you, officer". A little courtesy goes a long way... Well, it didn't in my case, so apply courtesy at your own discretion. Worst case scenario, you'll feel like an idiot for having been polite to your assailant before he went loco on your ass.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 11:16:36 pm by Nemesis6 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
AFAIK in the Ian Tomlinson case the possibility of the officer being charged with manslaughter still exists.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
The thing about police not being able to do searches without a warrant, etc, it's all well and good, but you'd be naive to think that police are actually bound by this. They might get busted over it once in a while, but you make it sound like there is absolute adherence to rules like this, and from what I've seen and read about American police in particular, that is not always the case.

I snipped this little statement to make a point.  Point being that you're showing an immense ignorance of the law and legal systems.

There are three types of law:  common law (law that is generally understood, having been established since the magna carta, and encompassing general principles of justice; NOT written down), legislation (Acts/Statutes/Regulations; those laws passed by the governing body), and case law (legal precedent established by the judiciary).  Countries which operate using all three can be loosely-defined as Common Law countries.  These include the United States, Britain, Canada (except Quebec), Australia, etc.  In these countries, the judicial system is adversarial, pitting a representative of the state (Prosecutor) versus the defendant in the presence of an impartial fact-finder (judge) and [optionally] jury.  This system is distinct from the legal system used in countries such as France, which operate on the Napoleonic Code.  There are a variety of other systems, and I can honestly say I'm not sure what configuration Denmark follows.  This paragraph is just background.

Common law countries almost universally have a constitutional provision against unreasonable search and seizure - the wording varies, the jist remains the same.  "Unreasonable" is not defined in the constitutional documents, but is actually defined in case law - that is, judges define what's reasonable and what isn't.  All searches conducted in accordance with a warrant issued by a person legally authorized to do (justice, magistrate, judge) so are considered to be reasonable unless proven otherwise by the defendant.  Supreme Courts in the USA, Britain, and Canada have all said that any form of warrantless search is de facto unreasonable unless the representative of the state (prosecutor) can establish a reasonable and legal reason for the search.  There are many, many provisions in law that allow persons in authority to conduct searches without a warrant.

Contrary to good old "Law and Order," the main point of contention about the reasonableness of a search comes down to what is called (in Canada) exigent circumstances.  All Common Law nations have a variety of laws that allow persons in authority to conduct a search without a warrant if they reasonably believe it to be necessary for a variety of reasons (in Canada, there are four).  Who decides their belief was reasonable?  That's our friend the judge.  What happens if the search is deemed unreasonable?  A complex weighing of factors that can result in the exclusion of the evidence obtained by the search from consideration in the case.

Beyond exigent circumstances, many statutes actually have provisions allowing persons in authority to search based on specific reasons without a warrant - in these cases, they must merely establish a reasonable belief that the appropriate section of the statute applies.  A good example of this is Customs and Immigration personnel.  The criteria for reasonable search by both of these entities in most democratic nations is extremely low - else they could not function effectively.  Another example is called "search incident to arrest" - meaning that an officer may search a person immediately incident to their arrest for safety reasons.  If other evidence is obtained during the search, other legal provisions allow the officer to preserve that evidence.

I think I've made my point.

Police generally adhere to the rules of search and seizure because they have to - otherwise, you risk loss of evidence and staying/dropping of charges.  It's not optional, and judges do not treat police officers who flaunt the law politely; the only protection police have from prosecution themselves is establishing that they have acted in good faith and reasonable belief of accordance with the principles of the law.  That said, just because a search was not conducted with a warrant does not mean it wasn't legal and the police simply "get away with it" because they can.

The phrase "a little knowledge can do a lot of harm" comes to mind when I read your comments.  You may have done some research, but you clearly lack an understanding of the subject material at its core and it makes your argument look naive and overly-simplistic, based more on emotional anecdotes than fact.  I suggest you spend some time establishing what the legal facts are before rushing to judgment.  You're painting hundreds of thousands of honest, reasonable professionals with hundreds of different departments and agencies with the same tarnishing brush when all you know is limited anecdotes and a simplistic understanding of the legal systems they work in.

I don't know the Danish system; I admit that up front.  But if your grasp of it is as poor as your grasp of the other countries you've supposedly researched, it's time to go back and do a lot of self-education.
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Offline ShadowGorrath

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Instead of making a lengthy post, I'll explain this in short:

Random as*****e 01: "No, police are evil, they beat up my cousin's friend, I don't trust them, won't ever tell anything to them, since I know I'm right, and they're wrong!"

Same Random as*****e 01 after his/her house is robbed: "No, police, heeeeeelp!"

Now, imagine if that said robber gets away with it with lack of people telling the police what they know :p