Author Topic: Why you should never talk to the police  (Read 12746 times)

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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Hey, Nemesis:  people who make blanket statements are morons.

And thanks for invoking battered wife syndrome, asshole.  You being roughed up by a cop once is NOT the same as women (or men in quite a few cases) who are emotionally and physically scarred not just by something they're supposed to trust, but that they're in love with.  It's not the same thing.  Knock it off.

Look, I make extreme accusations all the time, and I have plenty of groups on my ****list.  But I can't recall ever saying all conservatives, Republicans, or Christians are evil. 

Do some cops betray the public trust and step over their boundaries?  Yes, I'm not going to argue that.  But saying each and every one of them is simply guilty by association simply screams ignorance and stupidity.  There are plenty of good cops out there.  I'm sorry you're too blinded by your phobia to see that.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Calm down nuclear, let's not have any flaming from either side here.

Nemesis has pretty much Godwin'd himself in that last post anyway.
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Nemesis has pretty much Godwin'd himself in that last post anyway.

Er.... Where did it go?  :nervous:

------------------

It's very simple. The police have never done anything wrong to me and the odds of the police driving up to my house and arresting me for murder are probably exceedingly low. So there is no reason to not talk to them.



Okay. One more time. THERE IS NO WAY THAT DOING THAT CAN HELP YOU. IT CAN ONLY HARM YOU.

Do you disagree with that point? If so, how?


 

Offline tinfoil

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
You know, my last encounter with the law involved a cop spotting me a quarter for a six pack of monster. When he asked why I was buying it I told him it was for an all day dig and ride session at the local dirt jumps and the conversation went from there. Longish story short, he turned out to be an avid rider himself and later turned up at the (completely illegal) dirt jumps himself, off duty to help dig and ended up sessioning them with us for a while. I'm at a classic cop hating age, break minor laws with alarming regularity and have encountered downright foul members of the police service. That didn't stop me from telling this guy a fair amount about myself and actually having a pretty good time with him later.

I admit to making some blanket statements from time to time and like nuclear have a number of groups on my ****list. Not one police force that I've encountered is on it. Occasionally they may screw up, they may have members that are assholes but all in all, the people that make them up are honest individuals and generally good people. Their purpose is not to screw you over but to keep you safe. The phobia expressed by the creators of this video seems is pretty ridiculous and I honestly can not for the life of me understand it.

@BloodEagle

I disagree with that. Please explain to me, rationally why this would harm you, assuming that your activities on a day to day basis are not breaking major laws and that they have no reason to arrest or otherwise bother you. I can see this doing more harm than good to say, a drug dealer or to a professional car thief but certainly not the average citizen.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
@BloodEagle

I disagree with that. Please explain to me, rationally why this would harm you, assuming that your activities on a day to day basis are not breaking major laws and that they have no reason to arrest or otherwise bother you. I can see this doing more harm than good to say, a drug dealer or to a professional car thief but certainly not the average citizen.
...you're asking that in a thread which is about a video which explains the reasons. Did you not watch it or did you not find the reasons in it?

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
I find the reasons overly paranoid and destructive for a society. Unless you are accused of a serious crime, there's no REAL reason to not talk to the police.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Cops in my country are generally inefficient, but I'd still talk to them.
They're o.k. people and I've never broken any law, so...

This paranoia is redicolous. I could tell a cop anything about myself - what's he's gonna do with that useless knowledge? He can make all the searches he wants, he'll never find anything.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
You're that sure they won't find the bodies under the patio? :p
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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Had quite a bit of interaction with the cops 'round here, on both sides of the fence.
Never had a problem with the way they've conducted themselves, not even "niggling little annoying problems."
They do their job, they are helpful when they can be too.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Nemesis has pretty much Godwin'd himself in that last post anyway.

Er.... Where did it go?  :nervous:

It's back. If it disappears again there will be....trouble.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
You're that sure they won't find the bodies under the patio? :p

What kind of a fool you take me for? I have my henchmen cremate the bodies and dump the ashes up on the mountain. :P


EDIT: I care not for Godwins at all. :blah:
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
If you can't make an argument without mentioning Hitler or the Nazis it's usually because you have no argument. :p
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
It's very simple. The police have never done anything wrong to me and the odds of the police driving up to my house and arresting me for murder are probably exceedingly low. So there is no reason to not talk to them.



Okay. One more time. THERE IS NO WAY THAT DOING THAT CAN HELP YOU. IT CAN ONLY HARM YOU.

Do you disagree with that point? If so, how?



I can give a statement to the police about a crime I witnessed. I can give a statement to the police about a crime that happened to me. I can give someone an alibi after they had been charged with a crime that they didn't commit. I can shoot holes through an alibi of someone trying to get out of a crime.

I can talk to the cops about numerous things (and I already do), you know what it least likely to happen? Me being arrested for something based off something I said.

Do you know how worried I am about talking to the cops and being convicted of a crime I didn't commit because I said something that was not a confession? I'm not at all. Zero.


 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
It's very simple. The police have never done anything wrong to me and the odds of the police driving up to my house and arresting me for murder are probably exceedingly low. So there is no reason to not talk to them.



Okay. One more time. THERE IS NO WAY THAT DOING THAT CAN HELP YOU. IT CAN ONLY HARM YOU.

Do you disagree with that point? If so, how?



I can give a statement to the police about a crime I witnessed. I can give a statement to the police about a crime that happened to me. I can give someone an alibi after they had been charged with a crime that they didn't commit. I can shoot holes through an alibi of someone trying to get out of a crime.

I can talk to the cops about numerous things (and I already do), you know what it least likely to happen? Me being arrested for something based off something I said.

Do you know how worried I am about talking to the cops and being convicted of a crime I didn't commit because I said something that was not a confession? I'm not at all. Zero.



You failed to answer the question.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
It's very simple. The police have never done anything wrong to me and the odds of the police driving up to my house and arresting me for murder are probably exceedingly low. So there is no reason to not talk to them.



Okay. One more time. THERE IS NO WAY THAT DOING THAT CAN HELP YOU. IT CAN ONLY HARM YOU.

Do you disagree with that point? If so, how?



I can give a statement to the police about a crime I witnessed. I can give a statement to the police about a crime that happened to me. I can give someone an alibi after they had been charged with a crime that they didn't commit. I can shoot holes through an alibi of someone trying to get out of a crime.

I can talk to the cops about numerous things (and I already do), you know what it least likely to happen? Me being arrested for something based off something I said.

Do you know how worried I am about talking to the cops and being convicted of a crime I didn't commit because I said something that was not a confession? I'm not at all. Zero.

<Insert picture of Kyle screaming, here>

You changed the context! Again! Even going so far as to ignore the quoted post, that you made!

In the original context, you never initiated it. We're talking about the police coming up to you, out of the blue, and questioning you.

And I'm pretty sure that, earlier in the thread, I specifically stated 'when not reporting a crime'. ::Yeah, here it is::

----------------

For clarification purposes, are they being polite, or nice?  Because there's a pretty significant difference between the two.
Really? How so? To me, polite is nice

That explains a lot, actually. 

A complete asshole can be polite.  All polite means is that decorum is adhered to.  Nice means, well, friendly, among other things.

 

Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
On that specific issue; an officer seemingly being nice or friendly would, in my view, entice me more not to talk to them than them being dicks, and this story here outlines why quite perfectly:
http://www.insurgentamerican.net/2007/05/28/why-people-hate-cops/

In his case, being nice, polite, friendly, etc, were just potent tools for manipulating him.

I find it interesting that people are differentiating between talking to the police as a suspect and as a witness, when the video specifically addresses this at several points, notably at 12:10. But as it also says at another point in the video:
Quote
The United States Supreme Court, don’t take my word for this, in Ohio vs. Reiner, the supreme court of the United States said quote: one of the Fifth Amendment’s basic functions is to protect innocent men who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances, truthful responses of an innocent witness as well as those of a wrong doer, may provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speakers own mouth.

Also,
Quote from: Grunewald v. United States, 353 U.S. 391 (1957)
We need not tarry long to reiterate our view that, as the two courts below held, no implication of guilt could be drawn from [a person’s] invocation of his Fifth Amendment privilege before the grand jury. Recent reexamination of the history and meaning of the Fifth Amendment has emphasized anew that one of the basic functions of the privilege is to protect innocent men. ... " Too many, even those who should be better advised, view this privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers. They too readily assume that those who invoke it are either guilty of crime or commit perjury in claiming the privilege. ... "The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.

It seems pretty clear to me...  :doubt:
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 11:44:51 am by Nemesis6 »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Also,
Quote from: Grunewald v. United States, 353 U.S. 391 (1957)
We need not tarry long to reiterate our view that, as the two courts below held, no implication of guilt could be drawn from [a person’s] invocation of his Fifth Amendment privilege before the grand jury. Recent reexamination of the history and meaning of the Fifth Amendment has emphasized anew that one of the basic functions of the privilege is to protect innocent men. ... " Too many, even those who should be better advised, view this privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers. They too readily assume that those who invoke it are either guilty of crime or commit perjury in claiming the privilege. ... "The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.

It seems pretty clear to me...  :doubt:

What's your point?

The right to refuse to testify, codified as the Fifth Amendment in the United States and section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (and various sections of other nations' Constitutional documents) only exists during court proceedings, and embodies the same principles as the legal right to refuse to make statements which exists prior to court proceedings.  You're not making a point by bringing it under discussion, unless you're interpreting it as somehow bolstering your case that all officers of the law are inherently fascists in pursuit of innocent people to harass.  Hint:  it doesn't.

Quote
and that's why I'm amazed at Ryan's unwavering confidence in such utopian principles like a violent police officer actually being punished. Who would tell? The witness, yeah, but seriously, if a victim of police brutality was to take an officer to court, and it was his word against the officer's, we all know what would happen - The policemen are viewed as "expert" witnesses, and all that would be needed would be to get his corrupt partner to deny it, and then it's the victim's word against two "experts" within their field.

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

An expert witness is a person who has significant experience and education in a field such that their credentials can be recognized to give evidence on the technical or scientific aspects of a subject beyond a layperson's understanding.  Police officers only meet the criteria of "expert witness" when they have sufficient expertise in a specific area as to be credited experts in it.  You cannot, for the court's purposes, be an expert in "policing."  Police officers are recognized as expert witnesses very rarely, and typically only outside the scope of their occupation as police officers.  So that shoots that whole little theory right out of the water from the start, but let's continue just for the sake of bringing this argument to its sorry conclusion.
  • In many jurisdictions, and certainly in all of Canada, incidents involving serious injury and police are now immediately investigated by a separate unit from the moment they happen.  This makes it difficult for any sort of cover-up to occur.
  • In all incidents, officers take notes on what has occurred from their perspective.  In the case of excessive force proceedings against police, those notes are admitted as evidence and the victim has the direct ability to challenge the events as the officer has described them through their own testimony.
  • It is extremely difficult to testify contrary to video evidence, and virtually all police cruisers are equipped with cameras.
  • Physical evidence of injury is admitted at trial, and experts can and will usually be called to give evidence over the types of injuries sustained.  It isn't terribly difficult to tell the difference between injuries suffered as part of unlawful resistance to which an officer has responded with force, or a beating in which the officer used excessive force.
  • Officers who lie under oath during testimony risk prosecution, conviction, and loss of their career.
  • Judges do not inherently take the word of a police officer over the word of anyone else.  It comes down to credibility of the witnesses; officers can be made to look non-credible just as easily as anyone else.

Prosecutions for excessive force and/or assault are fairly rare among police, largely because prosecutors will only proceed if they have sufficient evidence to gain a conviction.  In many cases, the charges are simply not founded.  In many others, police are charged internally under the Police Act (or its jurisdictional equivalent) and are subject to disciplinary hearings which can impose fines, loss of job, and refer the matter for criminal prosecution should the situation warrant it.

I don't have unwavering confidence in the justice system - it is created and administered by human beings and contains flaws.  That said, it generally operates fairly well and the people who work within it are genuinely trying to help - including police officers.  I do have unwavering confidence that the problem individuals within the system are few in number, and are completely non-representative of the greater law enforcement community.

For the record, I've worked as an active member of Canadian federal law enforcement in two separate agencies for four years.  In that time, I have met hundreds of other law enforcement officers from more than a dozen different agencies.  Are a lot of us cynics, who frequently see the worst in people?  Absolutely.  Do I know a single person who has ethically or legally violated their oaths in the performance of their duties?  Absolutely not.  The vast majority of law enforcement officers are hardworking, underpaid individuals who do what they do because they are passionate about making a difference despite the public scorn they frequently receive.  As a group, these people deserve your respect and appreciation, not scorn and ignorant paranoid delusions.

Legally speaking, there are absolutely circumstances under which a person should exercise their rights to silence and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, but it's not because law enforcement officials are corrupt/evil/Nazis/whatever - it's because those rights exist to protect yourself from an imperfect legal system that requires checks and balances.  This does not mean you should never talk to the police.  That stance is, frankly, ignorant.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
<Insert picture of Kyle screaming, here>

You changed the context! Again! Even going so far as to ignore the quoted post, that you made!

In the original context, you never initiated it. We're talking about the police coming up to you, out of the blue, and questioning you.

And I'm pretty sure that, earlier in the thread, I specifically stated 'when not reporting a crime'. ::Yeah, here it is::

And I'll still tell them. If I have information that can lead to them solving a crime, hell yea I'll tell them. If a crime occurred and they want me to tell them what I saw, I'll tell them because I might be the only one who saw anything.

How does them having my information to get a better picture of a crime that they want to solve not help me? That's where I think you're not getting it. I don't care if they come to me or I come to them or what. If they ask if I saw something and I did, I'll tell them. If I didn't, I'll tell them that too.

Telling them nothing doesn't help solve the crime. The chances of them coming to get me for a crime are next to nothing.

I would also like to point out that in the previous post, I never mentioned one going to the other or not. I never said I'll go to the police or they'll come to me. I said i would give statements on things.


That explains a lot, actually.  

A complete asshole can be polite.  All polite means is that decorum is adhered to.  Nice means, well, friendly, among other things.

Explain to me what the difference is between friendly and polite while dealing with the police? He's not my friend, I don't know him. We're gonna talk about the game after he writes me a ticket?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 02:29:12 pm by Blue Lion »

 
Re: Why you should never talk to the police
If you get burglarized, call the police for help.  If a cop just walks up to you on the street, keep your mouth shut and answer his questions in as few words as possible.
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Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Why you should never talk to the police
Quote
What's your point?

The right to refuse to testify, codified as the Fifth Amendment in the United States and section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (and various sections of other nations' Constitutional documents) only exists during court proceedings, and embodies the same principles as the legal right to refuse to make statements which exists prior to court proceedings.  You're not making a point by bringing it under discussion, unless you're interpreting it as somehow bolstering your case that all officers of the law are inherently fascists in pursuit of innocent people to harass.  Hint:  it doesn't.

Quote
  • In many jurisdictions, and certainly in all of Canada, incidents involving serious injury and police are now immediately investigated by a separate unit from the moment they happen.  This makes it difficult for any sort of cover-up to occur.
  • In all incidents, officers take notes on what has occurred from their perspective.  In the case of excessive force proceedings against police, those notes are admitted as evidence and the victim has the direct ability to challenge the events as the officer has described them through their own testimony.
  • It is extremely difficult to testify contrary to video evidence, and virtually all police cruisers are equipped with cameras.
  • Physical evidence of injury is admitted at trial, and experts can and will usually be called to give evidence over the types of injuries sustained.  It isn't terribly difficult to tell the difference between injuries suffered as part of unlawful resistance to which an officer has responded with force, or a beating in which the officer used excessive force.
  • Officers who lie under oath during testimony risk prosecution, conviction, and loss of their career.
  • Judges do not inherently take the word of a police officer over the word of anyone else.  It comes down to credibility of the witnesses; officers can be made to look non-credible just as easily as anyone else.

Prosecutions for excessive force and/or assault are fairly rare among police, largely because prosecutors will only proceed if they have sufficient evidence to gain a conviction.  In many cases, the charges are simply not founded.  In many others, police are charged internally under the Police Act (or its jurisdictional equivalent) and are subject to disciplinary hearings which can impose fines, loss of job, and refer the matter for criminal prosecution should the situation warrant it.

I don't have unwavering confidence in the justice system - it is created and administered by human beings and contains flaws.  That said, it generally operates fairly well and the people who work within it are genuinely trying to help - including police officers.  I do have unwavering confidence that the problem individuals within the system are few in number, and are completely non-representative of the greater law enforcement community.

For the record, I've worked as an active member of Canadian federal law enforcement in two separate agencies for four years.  In that time, I have met hundreds of other law enforcement officers from more than a dozen different agencies.  Are a lot of us cynics, who frequently see the worst in people?  Absolutely.  Do I know a single person who has ethically or legally violated their oaths in the performance of their duties?  Absolutely not.  The vast majority of law enforcement officers are hardworking, underpaid individuals who do what they do because they are passionate about making a difference despite the public scorn they frequently receive.  As a group, these people deserve your respect and appreciation, not scorn and ignorant paranoid delusions.

Legally speaking, there are absolutely circumstances under which a person should exercise their rights to silence and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, but it's not because law enforcement officials are corrupt/evil/Nazis/whatever - it's because those rights exist to protect yourself from an imperfect legal system that requires checks and balances.  This does not mean you should never talk to the police.  That stance is, frankly, ignorant.

First of all I need to apologize for one thing - There was no reason for me to claim you having unwavering confidence in the justice system, need to put that out there. Next, the reason I brought those two quotes up was in order to offer some perspective for the people who do the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" bit in one form or another.

I think we're talking past one another here. Or maybe it's me mixing things up. As I knew the fifth amendment, it related to dealing with the police in all circumstances, but you're saying that this is unrelated to the fifth amendment? If you're right that the fifth amendment only applies in court, and the right to remain silent is indeed a separate one, then that's my mistake.

Regarding your list:
1 - There are two ways it is done in Denmark - Complaining directly to the police, obviously a bad idea. And the second is complaining to the attourney general. To put this last option into perspective, over 500 complaints were sent to his office, regarding police misconduct during police suppression of protests(yes, all protests were deemed illegal and suppressed by police) during the COP15 conference. They were ignored.
1 - That's where they first get the opportunity to fake the story, or skew details, and blame it later on an innocent mistake on their part, should they be called on it by the victim, or a witness. That's another reason not to talk to them: As you say, they're human just like everyone else, and they can easily make a mistake like that. I'd rather make their job as hard as I can, because their job is to build up a case against me, no matter how friendly they might seem. In other words, they're not on my side.
2 - Granted, but not all police encounters happen infront of a squad car, or within it. And a camera being present is no guarantee they won't do it, it's only a slight motivational factor as witnessed in the following case where officers rear ended a car that had stopped suddenly, police charged the driver with all kinds of stuff, even though the driver was maintaining a safe distance, and did nothing wrong. You can see the police's own video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh8lLjtFU9c
3 - As you said, such lawsuits are rarely won, or filed. Violent behavior on the part of the police doesn't neccesarily leave any evidence. When I say police brutality, I use that as an umbrella term for all unneccesary physical violence and intimidation employed against a suspect. Few police officers are stupid enough to beat someone so it actually leaves bruises, apart from the NYPD of course, but I digress. The point is, they just need to make it "light" for accusations of brutality to bounce right off of them.
4 - Historically, though, what usually happens is that they're given paid "administrative leave", or assigned a desk job. There have even been incidents where, after an officer's actions are put in question, it is found out that they have already faced similar charges, of which they were acquitted. It's like they have a fixed amount of days of grace - The first beating we can overlook, the second we can claim we deciplined you for/or dismiss it outright depending on the evidence, but the third... We'll have to rely on the judge for that, if it even to court.
5 - As far as I've seen, the supposed criminal is always the one viewed with scorn, whether by the judge or the jury.


I still maintain that cops, by large, are not accountable for their actions given the examples I've cited. Isolated examples one might claim, but they're indicative of a larger sickness. Even when wrongdoing is found, they are either rarely, minimally, or just not at all punished, and the only solace the victim can seek is monetary compensation, like the prosecution of the murderers of Amadou Diallo - His mother got 3 million dollars in compensation, even though the murderers were acquitted of second-degree murder and reckless endangerment.