Author Topic: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)  (Read 10218 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Okay, this is going to be a long one and highly analytic, so let's lay the groundrules. We're discussing organizational failures here, not individual mistakes.

Per the best study of the phenomenon I've found (It's called Military Misfortunes: The Anatomy of Failure in War if you care to look it up) military organizational failure is typically broken down into three modes: Failure to learn from the past, failure to anticipate the future, and failure to adapt to the present. From these three modes arise three types: simple failure, where you only screw up one way, aggregate failure, where you screw up two ways, and catastrophic failure, where you blow it in all three dimensions. Obviously, the more types of failure you combine, the worse the end result is. Simple failure is usually recoverable. Catastrophic failure is going to be decisive.

In The Great War, we have...

Failure to learn is irrevelant to the issue; there's nothing for anyone to learn from that has much bearing on the events that occur.

Failure to anticipate does not refer to an inability to peer into the future; nobody is clairvoyant. Rather, failure to anticipate is a failure to take precautions against a known threat. There is unfortunately a lot od this going around in the Great War.

The Vasudans failed to take precautions against the existence of the Lucifer. This is not wholly their fault, since they had neither time nor means to either destroy the Lucifer or disperse the population of their homeworld. However, it must still be ranked a failure as the existence of the Lucifer, its capablities, and the fact it was targeting Vasuda Prime were known in advance.

The Shivans got in on the action too, failing to take sufficent action to protect the Taranis from capture (a classic example in the end of a recovery), and failing to anticipate that the GTA and PVN would have many surprises to throw at them in terms of new equipment and tactics; each deployment of a new ship or new weapon didn't inspire them to prepare for the next one or behave more cautiously, even several fightercraft and many gun/missile models later. The Shivans should have realized at some point that they had hit the GTA in the midst of an upgrade cycle and made some kind of allowance for it, but they never did. The GTA was deploying a completely different weapons lineup at the end of the war from the one they had at the start with the exception of the Fury missile, and something similar apparently happened with the Vasudans.

The GTA alone is relatively blameless in this department; arguably the attack on Installation Riveria should be included here, but on the other hand a third-race situation was still too far out of context to be considered a "known threat".

Failure to adapt could be considered the story of the Shivan war machine, but for one significant fact; the Lucifer actually did change priorities. We know from the techroom at the beginning that it bombarded some random colony worlds. However once GTA and PVN resistance had stiffened sharply the Lucifer cut the crap and made a beeline for Vasuda Prime, then headed to Earth. This does not seem to have been standard procedure for the Shivans, if the Ancient's Monologues are to be believed; they killed everything and went for the homeworlds last. Similarily, Hellfire from Silent Threat offers tantalizing clues that the Shivans switched from their previous raiding tactics backed by annihilation of key points to a more conventional fleet-action based strategy after the Lucifer's loss. On the opposite hand, the Shivans never demonstrated adaptiblity on the battlefield; despite stiffening GTA/PVN resistence and a technological gap that closed very rapidly, Shivan tactics and deployment remained consistant throughout the war.

The GTA and PVN, by contrast, spent the entire war frantically adapting tactics and technology to combat the Shivans.

Proving the dictum that victory goes to the side which screws up least, the GTA and PVN commited only simple failure. The Shivans worked up to aggregate, and thus lost the Great War.

The Second Shivan Invasion is much more messy.

The GTVA drew lessons from the past, obviously. In the event, however, many of them proved unhelpful. This is not necessarily a failure to learn; there was no way they could have learned about the existence of the Sathanas design or the Sathanas fleet by studying The Great War. Positive lessons were learned and applied to GTVA ship and fightercraft design; AAA beams and flak cannon are almost certainly direct descendants of the discovery that shielded bombers rendered capital craft of The Great War desperately vunerable; the creation of the Artemis and Bakha bombers with their superior speeds and fighting qualities is outright stated to be the result of battle lessons.

Assessing if the Shivans learned anything is difficult. They too deployed AAA beams and flaks, but in numbers and placements suggesting more paying lip service to the lesson than actually learning it...but they continued to commit heavier numbers of fightercraft to escort duties, so there was not quite as much slack that needed picking up. They did however seem to grasp one lesson unequivocally, a similar one to one of the GTVA's: it is dodging the interceptor, not outlasting it, that gets ordnance to the target. This lesson is represented in the Nahema bomber. They also deployed the Mara fighter, which represents a significant departure from usual Shivan design standards of single-role fighters and a step towards the more multirole designs the GTA and PVN deployed in The Great War and the multirole craft the GTVA would deploy against the Shivans.

The NTF appears rather neutral on the subject; they were unable to deploy most of the more advanced craft from lessons learned in The Great War, but probably absorbed battle lessons from it. However at the end they almost certainly should have known the run to Gamma Draconis was suicidal from past experience.

Failures to anticipate are an interesting subject: the GTVA does not, in the final analysis, appear to have commited any such failures. In fact, the decision to evacuate Capella after the first Sathanas was sighted seems truly inspired in retrospect, considering the GTVA certainly had the means to take down one such ship. The existence of the Sathanas itself was not a predictable event; the existence of a whole fleet of them wasn't either.

The Shivans appear to have commited a single failure in this category; the first Sathanas was alone, and they should have reasonably been able to anticipate the GTVA could destroy such a ship if it was alone or lightly supported. Knowledge of the Colossus wasn't actually necessary for this conclusion; the GTVA had enough destroyers to do the job, and had a plan to do just that which they didn't get the chance to actually implement. The Shivans did learn from this, however.

The NTF commited the cardinal failures of anticipation; they started by extending into Deneb, and knowing that the GTVA had uncommited fleets and battlegroups that could easily rupture that front failed to take precautions against exactly what ended up happening. They also appear to have failed to take positive action to defend their fighter corps against the rising tide of the GTVA's second-generation fighters and new slew of weapons, all of which they would know of before the fact; the development of so many new fightercraft and weapons was by all indications already underway before the NTF seceded.

Failure to adapt is again, not apparently commited to the GTVA. They always had a reasonable, workable plan for their current circumstances. It may not have been pretty or a conventional definition of winning, but it was there.

The Shivans adapted their Sathanas deployment tactics to prevent further losses and that was the only pressing strategic concern requiring it. Of tactical concerns, they still were out there busily not adapting in the slightest. The end result is probably neutral.

The NTF, of course, failed to adapt to the Colossus' existence and to the changed circumstances it represented; their kamikaze run to Gamma Draconis symbolizes it. The bottom line was that the war was over, and every NTF crewer and pilot lost after the Colossus smashed the blockades into Polaris died without a purpose as far as we can tell. They failed to adapt ex post facto to the GTVA's second generation fighters and new weapons just as much as they failed to take measures against them before they arrived.

The Second Shivan Invasion demonstrates a different fundemental truth; when the material disparity is so great, screwing up just might not matter. The Shivans managed to reach aggregate failure again, while the GTVA made no mistakes at the organizational level; but it did not matter because there were 80+ Sathanas juggernauts and no GTVA counterforce. The Shivans could have dispatched their juggernauts into Capella singly at one-month intervals and that wouldn't have altered the end outcome in the slightest: the GTVA's forces would have been worn away to nothing before the Shivans had sent in half.

The NTF, by contrast, had no huge numerical advantage to fall back on and so paid the full price of reaching aggregate failure level: the loss of Polaris and the end of the NTF Rebellion as a political movement. The destruction the Neo-Terran Front as a meaningful fighting force occurred when they reached the level of catastrophic failure in the run to Gamma Draconis.
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Offline ssmit132

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
A very interesting and informational essay. :)

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
I thought the NTF run to Gamma Draconis was a way to get Bosch into the nebula.

 

Offline Enkidu

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
I also thought that the suicidal run into the nebula was a deliberate decision by Bosch. He had admitted that the NTF were a herd of stupid cattle, that they would follow his orders despite knowing they would all die. At the end he seemed to have regretted even forming the NTF, that he'd unleashed a monster. I think in his own way he was trying to atone, making sure that the NTF was destroyed wholesale instead of forcing the Civil War to drag on for god knows how long while the last survivors fought to the bitter end. This accomplished both his objectives, to reach the nebula using his considerable fleet as decoys and meat shields, while also helping to destroy the monster he'd unleashed.

At least that's how I interpreted the campaign, but who knows. Either way though it was an excellent essay!

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
I think you are right about Bosch. After all he said something about creating a monster he can no longer controll. Or that history would remember him as a monster and that not even being an unfair judgement along with the "method behind my madness" comment.

As for the Taranis, I'm not so sure about that being a failure. Considering the aftermath it might very well have been a trap all along. The shivans saw that the GTA and PVN go to great length to aquire shivan technology, so they put out a lightly defended cruiser and let it appear as if it is a command vessel to make it even more appetizing (that the Lucifer appeared ony hours later makes it very unlikely that the Taranis really was a command vessel).
And now the allies rush in to capture it and tow it to the most defensibe place closeby. And chances are that the allies put their most important facilities into the most defensibe locations.

So instead of having to ponderously scour one system after the other untill they eventually stumble over that suspected major military installation, the shivans could not just attack the place much sooner, but also achive the element of surprise in the attack. And all that by sacrificing a few figher wings (something the shivans have plenty to spare) and a single cruiser, which they most likely got back in the attack.

Which would turn the failure of protecting the Taranis into a success in adapting to GTA and PVN tactics and utilizing their weaknesses to the fullest.
The Lucifer though, was clearly overconfidence in their own superiority and invulnerbility.

 

Offline Timerlane

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
In pondering my own Shivan theories, one thing about the Lucifer's actions bugged me: Why did it follow you to the Altair jump node? There were no warships with you, only a few wings of fighters/bombers, a science cruiser, and a pair of transports. If the Shivans knew about the Ancient subspace/knowledge repository, why didn't they scour the planets of the Altair system more thoroughly to begin with? Then, of course, after the fact, why didn't they send any forces into Altair, rather than (seemingly)expect the Hammer of Light to stop the Omega transports?

Pre-Colossus, the NTF seemed to be doing pretty well for itself, at least outside of Deneb(which according to Return to Babel's Command Brief, was where Bosch learned how to power up the Knossos, so while seemingly of poor judgment, was also necessary for Bosch's agenda). With the abundance of Orions, Deimos and Aeolus cruisers the NTF had, trying to dislodge them from any system they were well established in would be(and indeed was) quite costly by any means(whether capship or bomber attack), which is why the Colossus was finally needed to break the stalemate, as both a tactical and strategic asset.

The NTF appears to have had at least small amounts of Harpoons, Stiletto IIs, and Herc IIs, and a fair number of Myrmidons and Medusas, so in addition to the Lokis and Herc Is, they weren't too bad off for fighter and bomber assets.

It took the nebula system to give the GTVA back the Prometheus-S(everyone, except the SOC, had only the Subach/Mekhu and Prom-R as 'serious' fighter primaries up until King's Gambit, which was after the Knossos 'suicide run' had begun), at which point the Tornado and Artemis had also only been recently been fielded, so except for the Perseus(which was also nearly brand new), the GTVA didn't have much in terms of definitive advantage in fighter quality until after the NTF had already been broken by the Colossus and the GTVA as a whole.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
I thought the NTF run to Gamma Draconis was a way to get Bosch into the nebula.

Sure, but the run to Gamma Drac also destroyed the NTF. Regardless of the final objective, it still resulted in the self-destruction of the organization. Set aside Bosch's goals; focus on those of the NTF itself. They could have set up a situation where the GTVA was forced to negotiate a peace with them as far as they knew. The Colossus would render it all moot, but they didn't know that.

Bosch was clearly a detriment to the organization, sure, but the organization should not be compromised by the failure of one man.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Bosch might even have been intentionally letting the NTF be destroyed, for whatever reason. The game describes him as a strategic genius. A suicidal run on Gamma Draconis, losing at least 3 destroyers along the way, is not "strategic genius" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Offline Enkidu

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
I thought the NTF run to Gamma Draconis was a way to get Bosch into the nebula.

Sure, but the run to Gamma Drac also destroyed the NTF. Regardless of the final objective, it still resulted in the self-destruction of the organization. Set aside Bosch's goals; focus on those of the NTF itself. They could have set up a situation where the GTVA was forced to negotiate a peace with them as far as they knew. The Colossus would render it all moot, but they didn't know that.

Bosch was clearly a detriment to the organization, sure, but the organization should not be compromised by the failure of one man.

I always assumed the NTF was a authoritarian regime, much like Nazi Germany in WWII, where one man had ultimate control. So I don't think it's beyond reason that if Bosch said we're gonna run for the nebula, no body was really going to question him.

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Sacrificing 3 destroyers, no matter whose in charge, requires second thought I think.

 

Offline Enkidu

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
You'd be right if the NTF was based on some kind of even distribution of power, but if Bosch is the ultimate head of government, then there's no one that can really challenge him aside from some sort of assassination plot. NTF Ideology seems to be so fanatical that no one would want to question their grand leader, if the actions of Rear Admiral Koth and the captain of the Belisarius are any indication. I'm sure that Bosch would have given a rousing speech, and a very well laid out plan (or at least it would appear well laid out) as to why his rush toward the nebula was both necessary and the correct course of action. Hell perhaps they even knew it was a lost cause and still went along with it, fanatics rarely give into any kind of rational thought process.

And as for Bosch's motives, as I said before I'm pretty sure Bosch wanted the NTF to be destroyed, after all he'd finished ETAK and opened the portal to the Nebula, his primary motive for creating the NTF seemed to be a cover to plunder ancient relics from Vasudan controlled worlds. That was now complete, the NTF fleet was no longer necessary, he just needed to get himself and his most trusted advisers to the nebula so they could communicate with the Shivans. His monologues referring to the NTF were all very negative and sounded very regretful. Either that or he was simply an idiot, but I think that's unlikely given how successful NTF operations appeared to have been up to that point. The near take-over of Epsilon Pegasi and Deneb, as well as holding off what must have been very concentrated and coordinated assaults on his key systems for over eighteen months, would seem to suggest he had at least some Strategical planning skills.  
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 03:15:52 am by Enkidu »

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Too bad we'll probably never find out what happened to Bosch...

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Bosch might even have been intentionally letting the NTF be destroyed, for whatever reason. The game describes him as a strategic genius. A suicidal run on Gamma Draconis, losing at least 3 destroyers along the way, is not "strategic genius" by any stretch of the imagination.

Yep, the question is how much did Bosch tell NTF command?

With Rear Admiral Koth dead it wouldn't have been that hard for Bosch to have put things on a need to know basis.

But then again I've never had a particularly high view of the intelligence of those defecting to the NTF (especially in the later stages of the war).
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
You'd be right if the NTF was based on some kind of even distribution of power, but if Bosch is the ultimate head of government, then there's no one that can really challenge him aside from some sort of assassination plot. NTF Ideology seems to be so fanatical that no one would want to question their grand leader, if the actions of Rear Admiral Koth and the captain of the Belisarius are any indication. I'm sure that Bosch would have given a rousing speech, and a very well laid out plan (or at least it would appear well laid out) as to why his rush toward the nebula was both necessary and the correct course of action. Hell perhaps they even knew it was a lost cause and still went along with it, fanatics rarely give into any kind of rational thought process.

Bosch is the public face of the rebellion that we know, but the assertion that he was completely in the driver's seat is ludicrious. What we know about the NTF, the early "regional dominio effect" says political groundwork, and that says civilian sector leaders. Bosch gave the rebellion intial muscle but he could not give it power enough to stand for eighteen months. We know Bosch because he was our enemy. He was the military's enemy. But any assertion he was the only enemy is groundless, particularly when Bosch himself says he can no longer control the direction of the NTF.

Furthermore effective military organization is, of necessity, based on distribution of power. That's why officers exist. The GTVA shows every sign of being a well-developed organization willing to promote individual initative on the part of both junior and senior officers. The NTF military is directly born of the GTVA's. You cannot erase that kind of environment instantly, and you could only begin to have done so in eighteen months. Bosch was the paramount commander, but he was not required to lead the assault on Epsilon Pegasi; Bosch was the paramount commander, but the GTVA didn't know he was in Deneb or commanding that assault either. There was clearly power-sharing going on. Bosch may have been a sort of first among equals, perhaps even the most senior commander, but he was not the only one, and lesser commanders did have license to think for themselves.
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Offline Enkidu

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Many of Hitler's generals (hate to drag in WWII here but I think there's a good deal of similarities) had individual initiative to act alone as well, but for many of the major strategic decisions, such as the Invasion of Russia and his decision to try and take Stalingrad and Leningrad, fell to Hitler. When Rommel requested tanks to deal with the allied forces landing at Normandy, Hitler refused to send them. In contrast Eisenhower and the planners of the Operation Overlord, all had to report to a higher authority (Supreme Allied Headquarters in this case) where the major political leaders usually had a say (Roosevelt, Churchill).

I am just going off of cutscenes and ingame info, but Bosch seemed to me to be that same kind of Authoritarian figure. He held the reigns with all the important decisions, he didn't need to spearhead the invasion of Epsilon Pegasi himself but he probably ordered Koth to do it or Koth came up with the plan and asked for Bosch's okay. On a tactical level individual initiative is a good thing, but if on a grand strategic level people are deploying entire fleets and system wide invasions without the OK from a higher authority your going to find yourself in a situation where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. There needs to be a central authority in order to effectively fight a large scale war.

I'm not saying Bosch was behind every single tiny little operation that ever took place in the war, I'm saying he controlled the overall strategic command. He appears to be head of state for the NTF as well, in Rebels and Renegades Snipes command briefing states that Bosch is moving to Regulus and installing his provisional government. He had the political and military backing to do whatever he wanted to.  

At least I can't think of any other plausible reason for why the NTF decided to do the suicidal run to the Gamma Draconis. If there were other leaders that counterbalanced Bosch's control why didn't they stop him? Why proceed with the absolute destruction of the NTF?

 

Offline Sarafan

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
If there were other leaders that counterbalanced Bosch's control why didn't they stop him? Why proceed with the absolute destruction of the NTF?

I'm of the opinion that Koth must have been Bosch's 2nd in command, with him removed Bosch is a position to do anything but its important to note that to Bosch the survival of the NTF is irrelevant, he considers them a tool and we know he created the movement to draw attention away from his excavation of ancient artifacts and development of ETAC.

We also have to consider the reason the NTF military was given to rush to Gamma Draconis before we judge their actions, there must be a logical reason for them to have done it that was supported by the rank and file or at least the majority of the officers because fanaticism can only do so much. If they werent given orders that made sense in the big picture then they would have simply surrendered to the GTVA the moment the Colossus showed up and what we see from the game shows that the NTF commited everything to the rush for Gamma Draconis.

As NGTM-1R said the war was over for the NTF due to the Colossus deployment, I do not agree that they failed to adapt to the Colossus because I think its more that their options of dealing with it are severely limited. They know the GTVA has reserve fleets and are not depending solely on the Colossus so they cannot simply commit everything they have against it without also losing the war, they know the Colossus's capabilities after it annihilated their fleet, they attempted to cripple the Colossus through attacking its supplies but failed.

At this point the NTF could only do two things, either stay on their strongholds and wait as the Colossus would simply move to their positions and smash them one by one OR seize a target of such importance to the GTVA that it would force them to the negotiating table before the Colossus could cripple them. Something like the capital of the GTVA would be a obvious target but heavily defended and at this moment we know and obviously so did the NTF that the only other thing of key importance to the GTVA at the moment is the Knossos portal.

This must have fitted into Bosch's plan or forced him into accelerating his plans but either way, he ordered the NTF to rush to the Gamma Draconis system and  the logic given must have been that by seizing the Knossos they could bring the GTVA to negotiate with them, would it have worked? Possibly because the chance to reopen the Sol node and stabilize many others would be so great that the GTVA politicians might be willing to grant the NTF their independence.

But to Bosch it didnt matter at all as long as he got into the nebula.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Many of Hitler's generals (hate to drag in WWII here but I think there's a good deal of similarities) had individual initiative to act alone as well, but for many of the major strategic decisions, such as the Invasion of Russia and his decision to try and take Stalingrad and Leningrad, fell to Hitler. When Rommel requested tanks to deal with the allied forces landing at Normandy, Hitler refused to send them. In contrast Eisenhower and the planners of the Operation Overlord, all had to report to a higher authority (Supreme Allied Headquarters in this case) where the major political leaders usually had a say (Roosevelt, Churchill).

It's a valid parallel; but it's also wrong. The Wehrmacht was built at the level of the general/flag-grade officer. (And it's important to note that every professional officer who served as Chief of Staff of major service save for Doenitz was eventually fired for arguing with Hitler.) Its majors/commanders and colonels/captains were competent, but highly constrained by orders in most situations. Its junior officers, outside of parachute units and some of the panzers, were not allowed initative or independent operations.

The NTF demonstrates a degree of operational flexiblity in the missions we fly that belies making the same assumptions. Love The Treason... symbolizes it. The NTF attack on the Sunder was a meeting engagement, but see how it developed; unlike most meeting engagements, it was not because two forces were headed to the same place. NTF units responded rapidly to a call for help. They came spontanously; the responses were too quick to have been coordinated at high levels, but were chosen by individual squadron leaders and ship captains who were not commited to active combat.

As noted, it also matters not what Bosch was; the NTF is composed of people who came from or were trained by those who came from the GTVA. The GTVA demonstrably is willing to grant great freedom to junior officers in accomplishing their mission.

Either way you look at it, there has yet to be a force in the history of the world that allows such latitude to junior and middle-level officers but denies it to flag and general-level ones. It simply doesn't work. Freedom of action flows from the head down. Bosch is a genius but he is only one man; he cannot have successfully managed the entire war. (Just as Hitler ultimately bungled the war against Russia by attempting to do just that.)

I am just going off of cutscenes and ingame info, but Bosch seemed to me to be that same kind of Authoritarian figure. He held the reigns with all the important decisions, he didn't need to spearhead the invasion of Epsilon Pegasi himself but he probably ordered Koth to do it or Koth came up with the plan and asked for Bosch's okay. On a tactical level individual initiative is a good thing, but if on a grand strategic level people are deploying entire fleets and system wide invasions without the OK from a higher authority your going to find yourself in a situation where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. There needs to be a central authority in order to effectively fight a large scale war.

See, that's mutually contradictory stuff. Let's break it down.

An authoritarian figure cannot, by definition, allow authority into the hands of others. We were talking Hitler earlier but a more useful parallel would probably be Isoroku Yamamoto, because not only did he have actual military training, he issued detailed operational orders...and ultimately presided over the destruction of his service as a meaningful force at both Midway and Guadalcanal. As Commander In Chief Combined Fleet, Yamamoto originated the plans for every major operation of the Imperial Japanese Navy until mid-1943 when he was killed, save two. Most of them; Pearl Harbor meant that Japan's strategic vision of bringing the United States to the bargining table would never happen, Midway destroyed the Japanese carrier fleet while they were isolated from any meaningful support, Santa Cruz and Eastern Solomons destroyed Japan's cadre of highly trained carrier aviators from prewar days, the surface and air actions off Guadalcanal snapped Japan's logistical backbone and left her cruiser and destroyer forces set up for knockouts that would be delievered later in 1943 and further up the Slot. But he did have a few good days. The raids on Ceylon and Darwin, the early actions around the Phillipines and Java.

Yamamoto was known to be an authoritarian officer with a penchant for seeking ways to enhance his personal power. He pushed the Pearl Harbor attack through with a threat to resign. Midway was forced on Imperial General Headquarters in much the same way. In essence he stole the planning perogatives of higher headquarters for himself; given half a chance he also stole those of lower headquarters. If there was a chance to take credit or tag along on a major operation so he could be there, get his name on it, he would.

Bosch exercising absolute direction ends the same way. He can't allow his juniors initative if he's a basically authoritarian figure. He has to be able to delegate, over Epsilon Pegasi if not over Deneb. Evidence is, though, that he did for both.

I'm not really arguing about the strong central authority; initative is as I apply the term giving junior or other officers the tools and a goal, not the tools, goal, and how they're supposed to accomplish it.

We cannot assume the state of the NTF at the end of its tether (where we saw it) approximates that of the rebellion all along, either.

I'm not saying Bosch was behind every single tiny little operation that ever took place in the war, I'm saying he controlled the overall strategic command.

Then ultimately, you're agreeing with me.

He appears to be head of state for the NTF as well, in Rebels and Renegades Snipes command briefing states that Bosch is moving to Regulus and installing his provisional government. He had the political and military backing to do whatever he wanted to.  

We don't know why Bosch is setting up a provisonal government in Regulus. Odds are as good as anything else it's because the civilian government fell when either it or the citizenry saw the writing on the wall. That he assumed full power does not mean he always had it.

At least I can't think of any other plausible reason for why the NTF decided to do the suicidal run to the Gamma Draconis. If there were other leaders that counterbalanced Bosch's control why didn't they stop him? Why proceed with the absolute destruction of the NTF?

Personal loyalty. A good officer can lead his men into the mouth of hell and they will follow...but by the same token, he typically will not do so simply because he can.
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Offline Enkidu

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Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
Guess I just misread your argument as being that Bosch didn't intentionally lead the NTF to it's demise and that it was all some kind of horrific strategic miscalculation.

 

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
NGTM-1R I think you are concentrating too much on the ill-chosen real-life parallel Sarafan mentioned. Because for me it looks like he pretty much meant the same thing you did, that Bosch wasn't controlling every little detail of the NTF military.
Just because he delegated tasks doesn't mean he has no say in overall strategy though. After all the was able to bring the entire remaining NTF military along into an operation that was doomed from the beginning. Allthough we will probably never know wether they followed him due to loyality alone or wether Bosch had to convince them first.

Either way Bosch didn't need to have full controll of the NTF. All he needed them for was to grant him access to the Ancient artifacts and keep the GTVA looking elsewhere while he and his men are working on ETAC. And with all that work I doubt he would have had the time to micro-manage every single operation of the NTF in the first place.

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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  • muahahaha...
    • EaWPR
Re: Assessing Failure: The Great War and Second Shivan Invasion (Essay)
So... we're all agreeing with each other?