[Scotty]

Now would be a great time to stop trying to fish for answers.

So, back on topic:  What kind of battlegroups do Raynors and Titans travel with?  With such obvious differences in function, they probably travel with different supporting elements, right?

[General Battuta]

Under conservative commanders, Titans act as rear-area deterrents, sortying fighters offensively on raids and in support of installation assaults. The destroyers themselves participate in defensive Jump Five deployments. Their escorts - Chimeras, Aeolus cruisers, and Deimos corvettes - can be deployed as raiders or screens for the destroyer itself.

Under aggressive commanders, the Titans and their Chimera/Bellerophon consorts are used in Shivan-style shock jump tactics. Because modern warships have better jump cycle times, FS2-era warships rarely participate in these tactics.

Raynors serve as main line combatants in battles where sustained presence is needed. They do not have the subspace maneuverability of the Titans, so they are more heavily committed when they jump into a combat area.

[High Max]

;-)

[General Battuta]

We're not discussing the particulars of WiH missions at this time beyond what we've already shown.

[Scotty]

Now would be a great time to stop trying to fish for answers.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

We are not discussing particulars of the WiH story, but we are committed to telling a good story that does not rely on hoary tropes.

Bringing in an outside force to resolve such an interesting, ambiguous conflict would cheapen it. I know that as a fan I wanted to see the UEF/GTVA war reach a conclusion on its own terms, not be brought to a premature end by the Shivans.

Well, the synopsis for WiH did say that two outside forces are bystanders during this conflict...

A young pilot tries to find meaning in a meaningless war. A visionary prophet does all he can to prove false premonitions of events which must not come to pass. A nation struggles to unite its people in an era of peace and prosperity, despite being beset on all sides. Meanwhile, two powerful alien races watch from afar, waiting to see if humankind will fulfill its potential as the Great Creators.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Translation: The GTVA and UEF are getting one hell of a nasty shock at the end of this campaign.

[Colonol Dekker]

That's a pretty comprehensive hypothesis.
 
 I'm happy to wait. . . . .

[NGTM-1R]

It's worth pointing out, though, that soft power generates hard power. A productive, prosperous society begets scientific and industrial advancement. Ubuntu is heavily invested in the free market, constant scientific and social progress, and a simulation-based forecasting system.

But this is meaningless in context. You cannot extemporize a navy and haven't been able to since the 1600s. (In fact it just keeps getting harder to do so.) The one and only possiblity of defense lies in preparedness. The UEF is demonstrably not a power structure that will prepare for the gotterdammerung conflict that a third Shivan encounter needs to be treated as.

And don't quote Banks at me. The situation's not remotely comparable. For one thing, the Culture actually did invest in preparedness.

[General Battuta]

But this is meaningless in context. You cannot extemporize a navy and haven't been able to since the 1600s. (In fact it just keeps getting harder to do so.) The one and only possiblity of defense lies in preparedness. The UEF is demonstrably not a power structure that will prepare for the gotterdammerung conflict that a third Shivan encounter needs to be treated as.

Go ahead, then, demonstrate it to me.

[-Norbert-]

Either the GTVA wins completely, the UEF wins completely, or they form a treaty near the end

Or it comes to a bloody stalemate after which neither side is willing to continue the war, but without any signed peace treaty and the chance of the war re-erupting at a moments notice.
Besides a total victory of the UEF is extremely unlikely.
Getting the GTVA to retreat from Sol? Yes. Unlikely but possible.
Completely defeating the whole GTVA? No way. They can barely hold their own against the Terrans. If they go on the offensive, they'll have to fight the Vasudans too, the two parts of the GTVA are just too intervined for the Vasudans to just stand by if the UEF goes on an offensive in GTVA space. And from the backstory (and forumposts) we learned that the Vasudan military is even stronger than the GTVAs, because of their healthier economy and because they didn't pour massive amounts of ressources into a portal-project.

Something that always bothered me about the GTVA was, that they didn't even give the UEF a chance to prove their assumptions wrong. For fifty years they lived in a isolated system, completely save. The shivans must have become little more than stories to frighten children. Now that the node is open again, the thread of another Shivan attack is much closer and far more real. That alone could easily have been enough to turn the UEF into something the GTVA would see as capable and willing to stand against the Shivans. Now add in information about the seconds Shivan incursion and the GTVA might have gained a willing ally instead of an enemy.
While the diplomatic approach might not seem as likely to succeed as the quick overwhelming military solution the GTVA planned on, it does have it's advantages for sure. For one thing even a quick military victory would have cost lives and material on both sides. And for another a war will inadvertadly create a rift between the factions. Or did they really think that the defeated UEF people will just say "thanks for conquering us", even if there is another Shivan incursion? If the GTVA really wins by subduing the UEF I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of humans join up with the Hammer of Light (both the political and the radical military wings).

Apart form that the war just came at too convenient a time to keep the GTVA high-ups to fully buy that they really only do this for the good of Humanity.

[Timerlane]

Completely defeating the whole GTVA? No way. They can barely hold their own against the Terrans. If they go on the offensive, they'll have to fight the Vasudans too, the two parts of the GTVA are just too intervined for the Vasudans to just stand by if the UEF goes on an offensive in GTVA space. And from the backstory (and forumposts) we learned that the Vasudan military is even stronger than the GTVAs, because of their healthier economy and because they didn't pour massive amounts of ressources into a portal-project.

Well, now that brings another thought to mind; the Terran side of the GTVA finally does something so unconscionable, that the Vasudans have to do something.

The Vasudans, however, stubbornly maintained that prophetic abilities amongst their species (including those once claimed by members of the Hammer of Light) were in fact the result of communion with powerful alien beings (The term ‘supernatural’ is never used in Vasudan mythology; the Vasudan view is that anything which occurs is natural and scientific). Ironically, this attitude towards ‘higher powers’ is not dissimilar to that adopted by some factions of the Ubuntu Party Elders.

Possible foreshadowing of a UEF/Vasudan Alliance(or, at least, some kind of non-aggression pact)? The end of Part 2: Project Nagari suggests the Vasudans might well choose to become involved on one side or the other(in the face of that "something unspeakably terrible" due to happen). The dissolution of the GTVA, or a full-scale GTVA-civil war, could even be(or be the cause of, directly or indirectly) that "something unspeakably terrible".

[-Norbert-]

I doubt anything short of bombing Earth or Mars could bring the Vasudans into actively perticipating in the war on the side of the UEF. Economic sanctions against the Terran worlds are another matter though...

[Insomniac34]

GB, we are eating up the GTVA propaganda because we have no UEF propaganda.  Also, what we know from the prose provides a good reason for the war.

1.  The GTVA needed the economic and industrial might of Sol in order to bolster their economy to prevent collapse.  If the economy of the GTVA collapses, then they can't muster the necessary firepower needed to stop the third Shivan invasion.  If that happens, then all the Terrans and Vasudans in the GTVA die, and Sol is left all alone for the Shivans to destroy whenever they feel like.

2.  The GTVA feared mass immigration to Sol from the outer colonies, which would leave them unmanned and unprotected when the inevitable third Shivan incursion would come.

3.  The Council of Elders are, to be blunt, naive, considering they first thought the GTVA was as enlightened as them, as well as their insistence on diplomatic talks with a clearly hostile GTVA even after the destruction of several UEF frigates and an assault on Neptune.

4.  The Ubuntu philosophy could easily be considered pacifistic, which is a death sentence in a galaxy where Terrans and Vasudans are surrounded on all sides by a genocidal alien race with limitless numbers and ships far more powerful than anything Terrans and Vasudans can build in comparable numbers.  (At least 80 Sathanes against a single Colossus that took 20 years and a fortune to build.)  In a situation like that, a strong and well-supported military is essential to survival, and it looks like the UEF military does not have much backing, at least at the start of the Sol-GTVA War.  I doubt the Terran-Vasudan military would receive much backing if Ubuntu took over the GTVA, leading to fatal weakness when the Shivans return.

GB, I would love it if you could provide me with reasons to consider backing the UEF in this war, because so far, from my reading of the prose, it seems like the GTVA needs to win this war as it is the only thing standing between Terrans and Vasudans and a painful death by Shivan beam fire.

1. If Ubuntu is anything like present day Islam or Christianity, then it has its extremists and the only way to deal with these extremists is through conflict. They see no other light and answer to a higher power. Only conflict can destroy a fanatic religion. Of course, it can also create martyrs and bolster it. WIth the added fact that the spread of this religion could leave humanity more vulnerable to the Shivans, and therefore extermination, I do not blame the GTVA for turning to violence as the answer.

2. See above.

3. Try talking to a fanatic Christian or Muslim or any other religious person. 'Nuff said. Religion = dangerous. All it takes is a small group of fanatics in power.

4. Have no doubts that even if that is true, their pacifist leaning mindset would surely impact the GTVA war industry. Would an Ubuntu-led government embark on a project as massive, expensive and unprecedented as the Colossus project? I don't think so. Sure the Colly herself was sort of an epic failure, but that is the kind of dedication to providing resources to the military that I am sure Ubuntu wouldn't support. Only a military-centric human culture, in my opinion, is capable of holding the Shivans at bay.

[General Battuta]

You quoted the wrong thing.

And of course all that is probably what the GTVA's saying, but it's missing a more fundamental point.

Oh, and as a correction, Ubuntu is not a religious ideology. Its members may subscribe to any faith they please. It's more philosophical/spiritual, with a strong rationalist/empirical bent.

[Insomniac34]

You quoted the wrong thing.

And of course all that is probably what the GTVA's saying, but it's missing a more fundamental point.

Oh, and as a correction, Ubuntu is not a religious ideology. Its members may subscribe to any faith they please. It's more philosophical/spiritual, with a strong rationalist/empirical bent.

Thanks mate on the correction, i guess it has been a while since I've read the awesome prose on the website. What do you mean I quoted the wrong thing? I was responding to your 4 points.

If thats the case, then I let go of my comparisons to contemporary world religions and instead cling to my fear of a pacifist culture. Basically I'm like the West Virginia of the GTVA, clingin' to my guns.

[Thaeris]

3. Try talking to a fanatic Christian or Muslim or any other religious person. 'Nuff said. Religion = dangerous. All it takes is a small group of fanatics in power.

I take exception to that. Any system has the capacity to be dangerous: political systems are equally valid. Nationalism? Hell yes. Look at North Korea, or at least what you've seen of it. Look at your political parties and how they devide the populace over issues. Look at the Nazis of the Second World War. An enforced or promoted system has the capacity to make people do inhuman or otherwise terrible acts - it doesn't matter how mundane the system or organization is. As social organisms, people end to affix themselves to a system and indeed, multiple systems. This isn't necessarily bad, but when you sacrifice your individual conscious to promote the larger "organism," you subject yourself to the views of the head of the said "organism." In all things, think, damnit!

My take on BP is that there is no innocent party either side of the Delta Serpentis node - this has in fact been alluded to several times. Heck, are there other religions in Sol besides the state-organized Ubuntu? I'm convinced this, or something like it, will be a key element in continuing the BP storyline.

[Insomniac34]

3. Try talking to a fanatic Christian or Muslim or any other religious person. 'Nuff said. Religion = dangerous. All it takes is a small group of fanatics in power.

I take exception to that. Any system has the capacity to be dangerous: political systems are equally valid. Nationalism? Hell yes. Look at North Korea, or at least what you've seen of it. Look at your political parties and how they devide the populace over issues. Look at the Nazis of the Second World War. An enforced or promoted system has the capacity to make people do inhuman or otherwise terrible acts - it doesn't matter how mundane the system or organization is. As social organisms, people end to affix themselves to a system and indeed, multiple systems. This isn't necessarily bad, but when you sacrifice your individual conscious to promote the larger "organism," you subject yourself to the views of the head of the said "organism." In all things, think, damnit!

My take on BP is that there is no innocent party either side of the Delta Serpentis node - this has in fact been alluded to several times. Heck, are there other religions in Sol besides the state-organized Ubuntu? I'm convinced this, or something like it, will be a key element in continuing the BP storyline.

I already admitted I was wrong, mainly because Ubuntu is not a religion, but a philosphy. My main reason for being anti-UEF is that I fear their ingrained pacifism would undermine the complex military-centric industry of the GTVA.

And you are totally right about religion not being the only danger in society. I am especially fearful of religion due to my living in the U.S. and seeing firsthand how it can undermine an otherwise very sound democratic system.

[General Battuta]

What do you mean I quoted the wrong thing? I was responding to your 4 points.

Yeah, but you quoted SpardaSon's.

I take exception to that. Any system has the capacity to be dangerous: political systems are equally valid. Nationalism? Hell yes. Look at North Korea, or at least what you've seen of it. Look at your political parties and how they devide the populace over issues. Look at the Nazis of the Second World War. An enforced or promoted system has the capacity to make people do inhuman or otherwise terrible acts - it doesn't matter how mundane the system or organization is. As social organisms, people end to affix themselves to a system and indeed, multiple systems. This isn't necessarily bad, but when you sacrifice your individual conscious to promote the larger "organism," you subject yourself to the views of the head of the said "organism." In all things, think, damnit!

The one special danger religion has is that it can't be evaluated on results. Because the rewards of religious behavior are imaginary/located in 'the next life', you can justify just about any action here-and-now by constructing postmortal rewards.

Otherwise I'd largely agree.

[Thaeris]

Hence the last line of my statement there. 

People are, for better or worse, dangerous by nature.