Author Topic: quick question  (Read 5536 times)

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Offline gavilatius

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has anyone decided to re-make the descent series?

if so, where can I get it
if not, who wants to make it (I got the discs somewhere)
any one beat the last boss yet?

 

Offline BloodEagle

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I'm assuming that you meant 'update'.  And, yes.

 

Offline gavilatius

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... um, I was hoping the graphics of the remake would look better...

... that was on the freespace 2 engine right?
any one beat the last boss yet?

 

Offline BloodEagle

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....

No.

 

Offline redsniper

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You might be looking for the Freespace Upgrade Project?
Which can be found on these very forums.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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... um, I was hoping the graphics of the remake would look better...

... that was on the freespace 2 engine right?

Descent series has a lot of constrained spaces.

Freespace has a lot of free spaces.


AI from one game would have terrible issues in another. FS2 AI already has terrible issues in constrained spaces like internal fighterbays or caves in an asteroid. They simply cannot handle them very well at all.

To recreate Descent type missions in FS2 engine, you would need to re-write the AI as the first task. And since Descent source is not available, I suspect it would be atrociously difficult task. Of course it would be beneficial for FS2_Open project as well to have AI that could competently navigate narrow spaces, but personally I doubt that'll ever happen.
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Offline Mongoose

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To recreate Descent type missions in FS2 engine, you would need to re-write the AI as the first task. And since Descent source is not available, I suspect it would be atrociously difficult task. Of course it would be beneficial for FS2_Open project as well to have AI that could competently navigate narrow spaces, but personally I doubt that'll ever happen.
Actually, the source code for both the original Descent and Descent II has been freely-available for a long time now, and there are a few different projects (including the DXX-Rebirth project linked above) that have worked to improve on them over the years.  You are right in that Descent 3's source code was never released, though.

I know the FS2 engine has Ai issues that would make creating a full-fledged Descent mod very difficult, but I've always thought that any such mod should be primarily multiplayer-focused, which would take the constrained-spaces problem out of the equation entirely.  Unlike the FS community, the heart of the Descent modding scene has always been more multiplayer-oriented, so it would suit the games' general fanbase as well.  We already have the (admittedly low-poly) D3 ship models as working .pofs, and I've done a bit of fooling around with table settings to see if I could approximate the movement statistics of the Pyro-GL.  If I had any modding skills to speak of, I'd start progressing things from there; even as-is, though, part of me wants to try messing around a bit more.

 
I'm assuming that you meant 'update'.  And, yes.

I prefer D2X-XL, personally.
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Offline Fury

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Actually, the source code for both the original Descent and Descent II has been freely-available for a long time now
Hmm. I hope some coders could take a look at Descent AI to incorporate some if not most of their features into FS2. An AI that can handle confined quarters would be awesome.

 

Offline Mongoose

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I'm not sure if the relevant code concepts would be at all cross-compatible, but it might be worth taking a look at. Considering the year it was made, the original Descent had some absolutely fantastic AI (some of those bots are scary on higher difficulties), and D2 improved on that even more.

 

Offline Sushi

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The AI is part of the problem, but it isn't the only one.

Many of the issues stem from the way the game world is designed. Descent levels are designed as a set of interconnected cubes, rendered from the inside. Freespace missions are wide-open spaces with objects in them. This crucial distinction affects a number of things that aren't handled by the Freespace engine, AI being just one of them. Lighting is another, as is rendering.

Really, the biggest AI problem (as people have pointed out) is simply avoiding walls and being able to navigate complex spaces. But that's a lot harder in the FS2 engine than it is in Descent.


Getting technical as to why putting "Descent-like" AI into Freespace is hard:

One of the benefits of the connected-cube arrangement is that it means that a Descent level can be constructed as a node graph, without doing any pre-processing. Furthermore, All of those cubes are static for the duration of the level: they don't move around. Being able to construct such a node graph is crucial for such things as pathfinding: there are well-defined algorithms (such as A*) for finding the shortest path from point A to point B in such a node graph (such a Descent level). If we have a maze of corridors, it's computationally simple to compute a path from any point in the maze to any other that doesn't ram into walls. Using that, it becomes fairly easy to implement all sorts of neat behaviors with convincing bots that don't smash themselves into the walls constantly. I've actually implemented AI for a from-scratch project that does exactly this... but using the same "inside of cubes" assumption that Descent does.

On the other hand, if we try to do the same thing with Freespace, we have a number of problems. First of all, we don't have that connected-cube arrangement, so we don't have a node graph. That means we would need to examine polygon models and generate a graph on the fly. Furthermore, stuff in Freespace moves. That means we would need to be able to update the node graph on the fly as well, and our pathfinding algorithms need to take into account the possibility of the graph shifting underneath them. We also need to figure out how to do this in a way that stays computationally feasible, so the game doesn't grind to a halt. Finally, a lot of the tricks that would make this easier imply a radically different AI design than what we have right now. Trying to incorporate those elements into the already-existing AI framework without breaking the current model would be a very tough task.

That said, all of this is at least theoretically possible, and certainly would be useful and cool if we could get it to work. But it's definitely hard enough that I at least have no interest in attempting it anytime soon. :)

 

Offline Aardwolf

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D2X-Rebirth is better IMO. It's more true to the original, instead of packing eyecandy in for no real reason.

 

Offline Mongoose

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That said, all of this is at least theoretically possible, and certainly would be useful and cool if we could get it to work. But it's definitely hard enough that I at least have no interest in attempting it anytime soon. :)
Thanks for taking a time to lay out some of the technical issues; I'm sure it would be a logistical nightmare to implement anything like this in the FS engine.  The shifting node-graph point is a particularly interesting one.  If someone were to ever attempt this sort of thing, I wonder if there would be some way to get the engine to treat a large external "level" model as a fully-static object, so that the pathfinding algorithm wouldn't have to compensate for it.

And just for the sake of throwing it out there, Descent 3's Fusion Engine actually handled things a bit differently than those of its predecessors, as it sort of combined aspects of room-based and flight-sim engines.  Instead of connected cubes, internal areas were treated as a set of separate room models, connected by specially-designated portals; the exterior environments were created by generating a grayscale heightmap that the engine would then automatically extrude.  I'd imagine that the engine generated some sort of node-graph concept based on the layout of these areas, though.

 
 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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now i want to go back and play the old descent games.  i never managed to finish any of them.  i think i only had the D1 demo anyway, it came on the dinosaur IBM my parents had back in the day.
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Offline CP5670

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I have been intermittently playing through the D1 Levels of the World pack through D2X-XL.

Quote
I'm not sure if the relevant code concepts would be at all cross-compatible, but it might be worth taking a look at. Considering the year it was made, the original Descent had some absolutely fantastic AI (some of those bots are scary on higher difficulties), and D2 improved on that even more.

D3 still has the best and most varied AI I have seen in any singleplayer FPS. Not only are the AI routines themselves great, but D3's gameplay mechanics allow the AI to stand out much more than most modern games do.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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i just had a look at that D2X-XL site and tried to install it.  complete failure.  i followed the instructions as best i could, but it kept referencing files that weren't there.

i did however fire up D3.  it runs, but not terribly well on a modern computer.  any tips from someone who has played it recently?  i'm on win XP.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Mongoose

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i did however fire up D3.  it runs, but not terribly well on a modern computer.  any tips from someone who has played it recently?  i'm on win XP.
What do you mean by "not terribly well"?  D3 should have absolutely no problems on an XP machine; hell I know people that run it in Windows 7 without issue.

 

Offline CP5670

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You might need to run D3 in OpenGL. It only works well for me in that mode. It also doesn't close itself properly and you have to shut down the process in the task manager. I've played it quite a lot in the last few months though, going through numerous user-made singleplayer levels. I read on DBB at some point that a few of the original D3 developers have started working on the 1.5 patch again, which will hopefully fix some of the issues.

As for XL, make sure you have the directory structure set up right. It's supposed to be extracted on top of a stock D2 install, but you have to move several of the D2 files around into new folders.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 12:33:02 am by CP5670 »

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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As for XL, make sure you have the directory structure set up right. It's supposed to be extracted on top of a stock D2 install, but you have to move several of the D2 files around into new folders.
that's what i was doing, but a lot of the files it was telling me to move didn't exist.  i'll wipe D2 and do a fresh install and try again.  btw, does XL fix the hyperspeed problem, or do i need to look into DOSBOX or something like that?

as for "not very well", i mean it looks like @$$.  in-game rendering is fine, but the UI is screwed all to hell.  the same font problems that are in freespace, but to a much greater degree, the background image is broken into pieces, and there are several lines running across and down the screen.  i'll try OpenGL, but i was under the impression that would just change in-game rendering.  the controlls also feel jerky and overall fast, but that's probably just rust from not having played this in 5+ years.
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