[Inglonias]

The Tech Room states that the Orion has something like 120 fighters stationed aboard. Why they aren't all launched at once in an emergency defense scenario like the Galatea was in during the Great War vs the Lucifer is an utter mystery. Wouldn't that HELP the evacuation of the ship?

(I know that performance kept it from being realistic, but still...)

Also, has anybody beaten all of the levels on Insane without cheating?

[General Battuta]

The Tech Room states that the Orion has something like 120 fighters stationed aboard. Why they aren't all launched at once in an emergency defense scenario like the Galatea was in during the Great War vs the Lucifer is an utter mystery. Wouldn't that HELP the evacuation of the ship?

It's possible that it would take hours to get all the ship's onboard fighters readied and aloft. I think flight ops are generally kept at a sustainable tempo and it's probably hard to instantly ramp up to maximum panic mode.

Also, has anybody beaten all of the levels on Insane without cheating?

Yes, quite a few, myself included.

[Dilmah G]

Keep in mind also, you have fighters out on repair, which are off the flight line, and craft out on sorties. And who's to say a substantial amount of craft haven't already been destroyed in that battle?

[headdie]

Keep in mind also, you have fighters out on repair, which are off the flight line, and craft out on sorties. And who's to say a substantial amount of craft haven't already been destroyed in that battle?

seconded in game with your emergency recall to the destroyer in the preceding mission

[Titan]

The NTF still had 3 entire systems worth of colonies to build warships from though. So I wouldn't say most of their fleet and strikecrafts came from defections. If anything, GTVA efforts were probably hampered by the construction of the GTVA Colossus and NTF sabotage efforts.

I don't think most pilots just defected over to the NTF either. Chances are, most of the pilots came from the NTF home worlds with the rest coming from destroyers that defected.

The NTF aren't going to just welcome random pilots flying into their systems either. Most of the defections probably took place within weeks of the secession.

Sounds good. It makes sense Bosch would stage his rebellion in a hotbed of young anti-vasudan resentment. He probably would have waited or something if he was somewhere else.

Also, the game made out like the three NTF systems were pretty large and important.

Another point - The GTVA is THE GOVERMENT. They have more than a war to worry about. whereas the NTF seems more like just a military that controls stuff, but aren't really in charge.

[NGTM-1R]

If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.

Wrong paradigm. The Royal Navy won the Revolutionary War. You cannot extemporize a navy. The NTF's officer corps and senior NCOs are most likely defectors. Rank and file crewmen would be new recruits. Defecting to the NTF early would have been a fast route to promotion as they spread out their experienced people to cover reactivated ships from somebody's boneyards since it's unlikely they could stand off the GTVA with the production of only three colonies to the GTVA's 20+.

It's possible that it would take hours to get all the ship's onboard fighters readied and aloft. I think flight ops are generally kept at a sustainable tempo and it's probably hard to instantly ramp up to maximum panic mode.

I doubt it has anything to do taking hours because, frankly, that's dumb design. If you have a power-projection asset that isn't able to project power, it's worthless. We also know it's possibly to rapidly conduct automated arming operations for example, so there's evidence that things are exactly the opposite.

I think it has to do with damage-control issues. A detonation in a hanger is just begging to cause a ship serious issues. As long as the destroyer is not directly engaged they will conduct high-tempo flight operations as much as they want, launching fighters directly from the hanger deck while they keep a ready group situated on the flight deck. In the event enemy craft approach the destroyer then the link between hanger and flight deck is immediately sealed with heavy armor to protect the ship and the ship fights it out with its ready group and whatever fighters it can recall from ongoing missions.

[General Battuta]

I doubt that the destroyer's entire fighter complement can be readied to fly on short notice. There are inevitably going to be ships down for repairs.

So I'd stand by the 'hours' estimate.

[Dr. Pwnguin]

Interesting perspective; the NTF is seen as a legitimate military but almost their entire fleet, form the smallest to the largest of vessels, defected from the GTVA. They're really little more than a rag-tag army of dissatisfied pilots. I'd assume, however, that the NTF WOULD be overflowing in pilots and their craft, especially compared to the number of cruisers and capital ships. With hundreds of potential GTVA loyalists, NTF revolts would either be bloody on-ship or deal more with coercion.

If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.

The NTF aren't going to just welcome random pilots flying into their systems either. Most of the defections probably took place within weeks of the secession.

The first SOC loop made it seem you got in pretty easily. good chance that the ntf needed pilots and didnt do as much in the way of ackground screening

Well the US had help from France in some places, enjoyed some popular support, and had the advantage of not needing to stand in a line wearing bright red when facing an enemy. The soldiers deployed the the colonies were also, for the most part, bottom of the barrel; given that the commanders downsized the threat considerably.

Also, the colonists took cover behind trees.  

[NGTM-1R]

I doubt that the destroyer's entire fighter complement can be readied to fly on short notice. There are inevitably going to be ships down for repairs.

If you're arguing readiness availability I again point to the fact we've demonstrated an ability for rapid automated performance of relatively complex tasks. (This is THE FUTURE^TM after all.)

And that it would be stupid for a ship to have a readiness index of 20% or less. If that is in fact the case, something is terribly terribly wrong with GTVA design and procurement, and I think the games demonstrate the organization is not that terminally screwed up.

I don't argue that having 120 fighters aboard you're going to be able to launch them all at once; there will of course be a number down for maintaince preventive or otherwise, but if of a complement of 120 you are not able to have at least 80 available for operations at one time, something has gone terribly wrong. Even 80 is being rather generous in this regard. Operational readiness rates have historically climbed.

[General Battuta]

Whenever I've worked with destroyers in similar situations I've tried to keep at least 24-48 fighters and bombers available on at least a few minutes' notice. I've always taken that to be fairly reasonable given that a good number will probably be out on operations.

[Paladin327]

Wrong paradigm. The Royal Navy won the Revolutionary War.

they did, did they? i must have missed that in all the history books ive read, and that contradicts the whole, "no english accent" thing

[Mongoose]

Wrong paradigm. The Royal Navy won the Revolutionary War.

they did, did they? i must have missed that in all the history books ive read, and that contradicts the whole, "no english accent" thing

NGTM-1R's point is that what the Continentals assembled for a "navy" was no realistic threat whatsoever to the Royal Navy.  If I'm remembering my high-school history well enough, it wasn't until the French committed naval forces that the British faced significant opposition in that regard.  In fact, the successful French blockade of Cornwallis's forces at Yorktown was more a matter of excellent timing and out-of-position British fleets than outright naval dominance.

[Dilmah G]

Whenever I've worked with destroyers in similar situations I've tried to keep at least 24-48 fighters and bombers available on at least a few minutes' notice. I've always taken that to be fairly reasonable given that a good number will probably be out on operations.

Well, unless the destroyer's on the front-line, there's only really a need for one or two squadrons at most to be on "Ready Five", and even then, they're most likely there to reinforce the destroyer's fighter and bomber assets in the field if their presence is required.

...but if of a complement of 120 you are not able to have at least 80 available for operations at one time, something has gone terribly wrong. Even 80 is being rather generous in this regard. Operational readiness rates have historically climbed.

That sounds about right to me. I mean, once you have your Ready Five squadrons airborne, scrambling another three or four squadrons worth of ships in the next five to fifteen minutes would be my logical decision. (Rather than deploying everything, if the enemy commander is someone like me, the initial attack is probably a ruse)

[mxlm]

A game where you are 1 fighter among hundreds would be kinda boring

I'd point to multiplayer shooters as evidence that being one among--well, not hundreds (MAG excepted, perhaps?)--dozens can indeed be quite exciting.

Of course, you'd end up with a very different game. Which, technical limitations aside (and I imagine those were not trivial), was probably why we don't have missions in which there're 64 fighters and bombers active simultaneously.

[Lucika]

*points to Operation Thresher*

[Javito1986]

Interesting perspective; the NTF is seen as a legitimate military but almost their entire fleet, form the smallest to the largest of vessels, defected from the GTVA. They're really little more than a rag-tag army of dissatisfied pilots. I'd assume, however, that the NTF WOULD be overflowing in pilots and their craft, especially compared to the number of cruisers and capital ships. With hundreds of potential GTVA loyalists, NTF revolts would either be bloody on-ship or deal more with coercion.

If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.

Oh man, if only this was a history forum. I could have a field day with this one. I'll just say that things during the American Revolution were not that clear and dry by any means and I don't think you're remembering correctly :-). Sure they won but... gah, not the right forum for that.

As far as the -topic- goes, there's really no point in debating this kind of thing. It's ALL due to 1999 engine limitations. Period. And by the way, I for one would LOVE a campaign where I was just one pilot out of a hundred in a Freespace fleet action. That would be so awesome.

[The E]

As far as the -topic- goes, there's really no point in debating this kind of thing. It's ALL due to 1999 engine limitations. Period. And by the way, I for one would LOVE a campaign where I was just one pilot out of a hundred in a Freespace fleet action. That would be so awesome.

It has been tried. Look at the 158th Exposition demo.

The problem is that making massive battles that are fun is extraordinarily challenging. See also: Battle of Endor syndrome.

[Mongoose]

Exactly.  The main issue with the 158th Expositions release was that most of the missions essentially played themselves due to the sheer number of friendly pilots in the area...and those that didn't were next-to-impossible due to the overwhelming number of enemies trying to kill you.  It's a very difficult balancing act to accomplish.

[Dilmah G]

The usual concept of having other friendly pilots in the area going about their own thing, whilst you have an objective to complete that ensures the next stage of the operation can go ahead usually works, provided this objective is challenging enough.

Also, camaraderie within the wing and the rest of the squadron also works wonders, in my opinion. The 158th lacked this.

[General Battuta]

As far as the -topic- goes, there's really no point in debating this kind of thing. It's ALL due to 1999 engine limitations. Period. And by the way, I for one would LOVE a campaign where I was just one pilot out of a hundred in a Freespace fleet action. That would be so awesome.

Not entirely, no. It's also down to the fact that missions with large numbers of fighters just aren't really any fun.