Author Topic: (all) rich people suck  (Read 29041 times)

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Re: (some) rich people suck
It isn't about the amount of money needed, it is about the size of the bureaucracy required.  The United States already has a huge, inefficient bureaucracy, and adding an entire health care bureaucracy on top of what already exists isn't going to improve matters.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

  

Offline Bob-san

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Re: (some) rich people suck
California's recent bankruptcy
We aren't quite bankrupt yet, we are still merely fiscally insolvent. :P  The biggest problem facing California's budget is the fact it is highly dependent on the incomes of the wealthy.  Since a lot of the rich have taken major income hits due to the recession, California isn't making enough money to meet the Legislature's uncontrolled spending habits, and like people with addictions, they can't seem to realize the only way to stay solvent is to stop spending so much money.
Basically, but said in different terms. They were financially insolvent; everyone stopped taking IOU's from the State of California. State assets were sold at auction, non-critical employees sent home without a paycheck, etc. The world didn't come to an end, but for a moment it paused.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 
Re: (some) rich people suck
So a few state employees got a few days off without pay, boo hoo.  So the state sold some land it didn't need, boo hoo.  The only real problem I see is the state giving out IOU's like they were real money, yet us getting sent to jail if we try to do that with our taxes.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Quote
Actually they're fairly spot-on, if a bit sarcastic. The system DOES need an adjustment, but handing it all over to bureaucratic control will NOT serve 309,000,000 people effectively in 50 states and several Caribbean and Pacific territories.


Which is not what the original point of it was in the first place. The original idea was to have a public option to get those 40+ million people without insurance covered. There is a state that does this already, Hawaii.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
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Re: (some) rich people suck
Quote
I'm sure that is cold comfort to the 40+ million that are being denied access. I'm sure it will also make those that lose everything they have, both insured and uninsured, to outrageously expensive healthcare feel better too. Before the financial crisis, the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US was healthcare. Fine the way we are? Doesn't look that way to me.
Whoa, didn't knew the economic crisis had struck you THAT bad. That's roughly 13% of the population without any health care if my estimation is right. I thought the percentage was statistically insignificant and could be dealt with through some alternative method, but now I see you're right about the situation being unsustainable.
You know, sometimes I have this image of Americans being rich enough to solve pretty much anything throwing money at it.

Still, I think the best approach would be to take some temporary measures until the situation normalizes again, trying not to mess with a recovering economy too much (or too suddenly).

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Which is not what the original point of it was in the first place. The original idea was to have a public option to get those 40+ million people without insurance covered. There is a state that does this already, Hawaii.
Except the don't and haven't for going on 9 months.

BTW, if you haven't heard, the abomination is passed in the House.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Oi...

Alright, besides it being the result of the Democrats, what exactly makes this an abomination?

Is it the best we could do?  No, but you have your Republican friends in Congress to thank for that (as well as some of the blue dogs...). 
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Offline Kosh

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Quote
Whoa, didn't knew the economic crisis had struck you THAT bad. That's roughly 13% of the population without any health care if my estimation is right. I thought the percentage was statistically insignificant and could be dealt with through some alternative method, but now I see you're right about the situation being unsustainable.


Um, that figure was from 5 years ago, BEFORE the financial crsis. I dont know what it is now, but it certainly has gotten worse now that many people lost their jobs (and as a result their coverage).

Quote
Still, I think the best approach would be to take some temporary measures until the situation normalizes again, trying not to mess with a recovering economy too much (or too suddenly).

Having 13% of our population uncovered is the normal situation. That figure also does not fully reflect the reality because there are many plans out there that don't really cover much at all, so in effect those people are insured in name only. Add to that alot of insurance companies are now making cuts to what they are covering as a result of the financial crisis.

Quote
Except the don't and haven't for going on 9 months.

From the first comment:

Quote
Hawaii has mandated employer-provided health care since 1974, with Hawaii?s businesses paying the highest percentage of employee health insurance premiums in the country because the Hawaii Prepaid Health Care Act (PHCA) requires almost all Hawaii employers to provide health insurance to employees who work 20 hours or more for four consecutive weeks with an employee?s contribution to health insurance coverage not exceeding 1.5 percent of wages. The result is a per-capita total health cost that is 60% of the US average ? about the same as the rest of the world, with a lower than the national average uninsured rate. The new ?universal program? was for children only and was stopped due to budget concerns, leaving intact the great coverage and low cost that comes from mandatory affordable employer provision of coverage. The insurance companies 31% overhead has to end and will only end via a public option and an affordable mandate ? either via subsidy as in the Senate Bill or via mandatory employer contribution as in Hawaii. Please contact an actuary ? I am a retired actuary ? before you write your next piece on insurance.

The rogue question marks are from my computer, ignore them.

"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 
Re: (some) rich people suck
The 40 million uninsured number is a bit misleading.  A lot of those people are here illegally, others in that number are rich enough to buy insurance but would rather pay out of pocket, some of those are young adults who think they are invincible, and a great number are already eligible for programs that currently exist but for some reason they are not signed up for them.  The actual number of people who can't get any insurance at all is a lot lower than 40 million.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: (some) rich people suck
All 40 million are still ****ed if they have a health problem though, so what difference does it make?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: (some) rich people suck
A lot of those people are here illegally,

This means, you realize, they will get treated at the state's expense if injured anyways.
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Offline iamzack

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Re: (some) rich people suck
The actual number of people who can't get any insurance at all is a lot lower than 40 million.

I'm still one of them.
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Offline Mars

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Most people I know in my life are uninsured.

My best friend's mother owes something like $50,000 in medical bills, and makes $20,000 a year.

 

Offline Bob-san

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Most people I know in my life are uninsured.

My best friend's mother owes something like $50,000 in medical bills, and makes $20,000 a year.
A statement entirely out of context I think. How did she accumulate $50k in debt? Why is she only working a $20k/yr job? Is she disabled? Did she have coverage while she was accumulating the debt? Did she do something incredibly stupid like pay out-of-pocket for breast implants or some other cosmetic surgery?

And nobody really knows the number of people without health coverage. As was pointed out, many of those without coverage in '05 was because they were rich enough or thought themselves to not need insurance. I don't know many if anyone that's uninsured; even my university provides health insurance for all students.

The problem with The Abomination is you receive no real choice; private coverage is effectively banned (no new sign-ups and you still need to pay premium of course), state-run coverage is free (paid for by tax, whether or not you will ever use it).
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GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
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Offline Turambar

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Re: (some) rich people suck
One thing I've never understood is why do people point out the size of the population as something that stops healthcare from working. Yes, it's roughly 4x the size of Germany, 5x the size of France, 5x the size of the UK and 5x the size of Italy. But it also has 4x the GDP of germany (3.863x), 5x the GDP of France (4.935x), 5x the GDP of the UK (5.287x) and 6x the GDP of Italy (6.121x).


Also, that comes out to an excellent argument for single-payer, since in this case having more people in the system actually would increase its efficiency.  Too bad we can't have some half-decent socialism in here :-(.

The way I figure, giving everyone an equal footing to start from ensures that the people who can actually start businesses and create wealth get the opportunity to do so, instead of having those factors like insufficient access to healthcare and education prevent a large amount of them from getting to that point.  The poor suffer less, more people can take risks and start businesses, and the rich will probably still get richer, since everyone else will have more money to spend and all the wealth wells up.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Tura, you begin from a false premise, that everyone doesn't start from an equal place.  They do, when you are born you have nothing.  When you wake up in the morning, you don't have the guarantee that you will see the end of the day.  The primary difference between the "rich" and the "poor" is ambition.  Rich people are rich, primarily, because they get out there and bust they're ass when no one is looking. 

Also, just how high do you set the "equal" bar?  If you provide health care and education so that every starts from an "equal" place, why not raise it so that even if they fail, they aren't actually hurt?  Where does the drive to succeed come from if everyone starts from comfort?  You whine and complain about "teh ebil CONSUMERISM", well in your world, that's all that's left to drive people to be successful is rampant selfish, keeping-up-with-the-joneses greed.

Also, Communism fails, usually quite rapidly, because the power is centered in the hands of the a few people at the top of the government.  So even if you have really benevolent, well intentioned people at the top for first few years, eventually(because crap doesn't run uphill), you get these self-absorbed, narcissistic, maybe malevolent bastards at the top who snag the remaining power for themselves and then use the systems that you put in place to keep things "equal" at the bottom and make sure that they are not equally good, but rather equally bad so that they can more easily maintain power for themselves over the long term.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Tura, you begin from a false premise, that everyone doesn't start from an equal place.  

This is where you are wrong.  Some inner-city black kid and a pampered spoiled middle-class bum like me do not have the same footing from which to get started in this country.  

This is the USA.  Rich people are rich because they were born rich, or because they pulled the strings and gamed the system to get rich at the expense of others.  "Hard Work" and "Busting your Ass" makes you a typical American wage-slave, always striving to get ahead but never noticing that your life has essentially become work.  I'm sorry you've bought into the Republican line, but it just doesn't work that way the vast majority of the time.

Also, you seem to have this idea in your head that having the basics taken care of somehow means that people won't want to work.  The rest of the civilized world doesn't seem to have this problem, and they take care of those basics.  Motivation for succeeding?  Making life better for your kids, or making a meaningful contribution to the world before you die.  Not wanting to starve isn't the sort of motivation you're supposed to have in a civilized society.


Also, who said anything about communism?  


This is about the difference between "Working to Live" and "Living to Work."   Eventually, we need to make the transition or the entire populace is going to be burned out.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 04:15:00 pm by Turambar »
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 
Re: (some) rich people suck
Tura, I believe you are mentioning a system like France's?  I doubt it would be effective in increasing wealth.  Wikipedia agrees with me, especially about employment rates.  Only 69% of all French workers aged 15-64 were employed in 2004, compared to 77% of the United States.

And I quote from Wikipedia: This gap is due to the very low employment rates at both age extremes: the employment rate of people aged 55–64 was 38,3% in 2007, compared to 46,6% in the EU15;[66]  for the 15–24 years old, the employment rate was 31,5% in 2007, compared to 37,2% in EU25.[67]  These low employment rates are explained by the high minimum wages which prevent low productivity workers – such as young people – from easily entering the labour market,[68]  ineffective university curricula that fail to prepare students adequately for the labour market,[69]  and, concerning the older workers, restrictive legislation on work and incentives for premature retirement.[70][71]

Again, more quotes: The unemployment rate decreased from 9% in 2006 to 7% in 2008 but remains one of the highest in Europe.[72][73]  In June 2009, the unemployment rate for France was 9.4%.[74]  Shorter working hours and the reluctance to reform the labour market are mentioned as weak spots of the French economy in the view of the right, when the left mentions the lack of government policies fostering social justice. Liberal economists have stressed repeatedly over the years that the main issue of the French economy is an issue of structural reforms, in order to increase the size of the working population in the overall population, reduce the taxes' level and the administrative burden. Keynesian economists have different answers to the unemployment issue, and their theories led to the 35-hour workweek law in the early 2000s, which turned out to be failure in reducing unemployment. Afterwards, between 2004 and 2008, the Government made some supply-oriented reforms to combat unemployment but met with fierce resistance, especially with the contrat nouvelle embauche and the contrat première embauche which both were eventually repealed. The current Government is experiencing the Revenu de solidarité active.

Considering the French government is having significant issues with employment, and they are very leftist compared to the U.S., I would say that is a good reason to avoid socialist policies in the economy.

Source check.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline castor

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Re: (some) rich people suck
Where does the drive to succeed come from if everyone starts from comfort?
And where does the need for a society come? If being a member of a society gives you nothing, it'd be better to dismantle the whole thing. At least you'd be free then.

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: (some) rich people suck
castor, that's the very basis of what a society is.

Society doesn't exist to give people stuff, it exists to ensure that people of like mind and background can live together in peace.  Because I don't know if you've noticed, but different groups of people have in the past, and in current times tried to wipe out anyone who's different simply because they are different.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.