[iamzack]

Society exists to give everyone peace and security and the ability to specialize, etc. Lots of giving to the individual from society.

[Liberator]

And lots of giving from the individual to society.  Leftists always leave that part out.

Empty Heads full of Mush: I WANT FREE STUFF!  GIMME GIMME!
Leftist: I can give you free stuff!
EHFOM: YAY!
Everyone who is not an EHFOM: So who's gonna pay for it?
Leftist: You are!
Everyone who is not an EHFOM: WHAT!?!!?!??
Leftist hears: YAY!!!

Societies a great because the people in them do great things, not because they are inherently great on they're own. 

[iamzack]

if "leftists" are such idiots, how come you can't do better than a straw man argument? if you want to prove your opponent is really stupid, you use their own words. for example: link.

what do individuals give to society? they specialize, they conform to cultural customs, they try to turn their ugly babies into productive, independent individuals.

what happens to people who don't conform? we deprive them of society's comforts. we reject them, push them out, and eventually when they become violently disagreeable enough, we kill or imprison them.

[SpardaSon21]

Zack, what do you mean by "people who don't conform"?  You are using it in a vague sense, and I would like some clarification.

[iamzack]

i'm being vague on purpose. i mean stuff anywhere from being rude to being a rapist.

[SpardaSon21]

When has rudeness ever caused someone to become violently disagreeable?

I also disagree with your statement about conformity.  You are assuming a nation is a homogeneous glob of people, and that just isn't so.  America is a highly diverse place, and there is very little conformity possible when you have everyone from Texan rednecks to effete bluebloods who have vacation homes in Martha's Vineyard.  That's just counting whites, and there are plenty of other ethnicities besides Caucasians in America, plenty of them each with their own culture.

The most conformity required in America is to respect the rights of others, otherwise we wouldn't Harlem rappers and parades in the street that celebrate the Vietnamese New Year.

[el_magnifico]

Aaaaaaaand this turned into another "left vs. right" argument.

Now I feel disoriented. I'm too right to be considered a socialist or social democrat, and too left to be a "pure" liberal capitalist. So I guess I'll just sit down and enjoy the show for now.

Oh! Just one more thing. Providing education for everyone isn't necessarily a bad idea, not even for the economy (though it's better if you can get away with the private sector doing it). But feeding people is, judging by experience, a bad idea, since they do get used to it, it happens to be very expensive, and it's the first clear sign that you're heading to populism. Give them education and job opportunities. If they are too lazy to get their own food, that's their own problem.

[iamzack]

I also disagree with your statement about conformity.  You are assuming a nation is a homogeneous glob of people, and that just isn't so.  America is a highly diverse place, and there is very little conformity possible when you have everyone from Texan rednecks to effete bluebloods who have vacation homes in Martha's Vineyard.  That's just counting whites, and there are plenty of other ethnicities besides Caucasians in America, plenty of them each with their own culture.

The most conformity required in America is to respect the rights of others, otherwise we wouldn't Harlem rappers and parades in the street that celebrate the Vietnamese New Year.

America has social customs just like any other place. People are highly sensitive about personal space here, for example. You can't just walk on someone's lawn. That's rudeness. That won't get you imprisoned, but it will cause people to avoid and ostracize you. There is a certain amount of conformity in every society, otherwise there'd be no society. Everybody has to more or less agree on what's socially acceptable or not socially acceptable.

I'm not saying everyone is the same. Just that we have similar ideas about what good manners are.

Providing education for everyone isn't necessarily a bad idea, not even for the economy (though it's better if you can get away with the private sector doing it). But feeding people is, judging by experience, a bad idea, since they do get used to it, it happens to be very expensive, and it's the first clear sign that you're heading to populism. Give them education and job opportunities. If they are too lazy to get their own food, that's their own problem.

If it's in the private sector, you will have a big chunk of the population unable to afford it. That includes education, food, health care, etc. That's because the biggest profit doesn't come from everyone being able to afford the product. Just most people.

[Turambar]

in the case of US healthcare reform, it's a question of efficiency more than anything else.  We pay the most, we don't get the most.  something is being lost here and that needs to be corrected.  There's also the added benefit of keeping people healthy, which coincidentally keeps them working.

[Liberator]

But, Tura, you are talking about handing controlling interest over to the Federal Government.  An organization not noted for it's efficiency or speed in dealing with an issue.

[Turambar]

But, Tura, you are talking about handing controlling interest over to the Federal Government.  An organization not noted for it's efficiency or speed in dealing with an issue.

Yeah, but nobody else is in a position to do it!  There's no free market solution for universal healthcare. 

[el_magnifico]

Providing education for everyone isn't necessarily a bad idea, not even for the economy (though it's better if you can get away with the private sector doing it). But feeding people is, judging by experience, a bad idea, since they do get used to it, it happens to be very expensive, and it's the first clear sign that you're heading to populism. Give them education and job opportunities. If they are too lazy to get their own food, that's their own problem.

If it's in the private sector, you will have a big chunk of the population unable to afford it. That includes education, food, health care, etc. That's because the biggest profit doesn't come from everyone being able to afford the product. Just most people.

Someone with some education and in good health condition will have a hard time demonstrating he can't produce enough to feed himself. There are always some cases, like handicapped people, but those cases are not statistically significant and can be dealt with through other methods (hell, in proper conditions, handicapped people can not only work but in many cases even outperform their coworkers).

There are cases when the public sector has to intervene to provide some services if the private sector is not enough, but trust me when I tell you, feeding people can ruin everything in just a few decades. Oh! And it's not very dignifying.

[iamzack]

Providing education for everyone isn't necessarily a bad idea, not even for the economy (though it's better if you can get away with the private sector doing it). But feeding people is, judging by experience, a bad idea, since they do get used to it, it happens to be very expensive, and it's the first clear sign that you're heading to populism. Give them education and job opportunities. If they are too lazy to get their own food, that's their own problem.

If it's in the private sector, you will have a big chunk of the population unable to afford it. That includes education, food, health care, etc. That's because the biggest profit doesn't come from everyone being able to afford the product. Just most people.

Someone with some education and in good health condition will have a hard time demonstrating he can't produce enough to feed himself. There are always some cases, like handicapped people, but those cases are not statistically significant and can be dealt with through other methods (hell, in proper conditions, handicapped people can not only work but in many cases even outperform their coworkers).

There are cases when the public sector has to intervene to provide some services if the private sector is not enough, but trust me when I tell you, feeding people can ruin everything in just a few decades. Oh! And it's not very dignifying.

You'll find that most hungry people are hungry for a reason other than laziness. Even if it's just that they're too stupid to keep a job that pays well enough to feed their growing (due to stupidity and/or a lack of education) family.

[Nuclear1]

Ah, the typical HLP left v right argument...

Right:  COMMUNISM IS EBIL
Left: ur stupid wer not talking bout communism lol
Right:  YOU HATE AMERICA LOL
Left:  dude im dutch
Right:  SO UR COMMUNIST AND UR EBIL
Left #2:  I'm american and i like universal healthcare
Right:  PINKO COMMIE
Dekker:  iwn t more ptoatoc hips

[el_magnifico]

Providing education for everyone isn't necessarily a bad idea, not even for the economy (though it's better if you can get away with the private sector doing it). But feeding people is, judging by experience, a bad idea, since they do get used to it, it happens to be very expensive, and it's the first clear sign that you're heading to populism. Give them education and job opportunities. If they are too lazy to get their own food, that's their own problem.

If it's in the private sector, you will have a big chunk of the population unable to afford it. That includes education, food, health care, etc. That's because the biggest profit doesn't come from everyone being able to afford the product. Just most people.

Someone with some education and in good health condition will have a hard time demonstrating he can't produce enough to feed himself. There are always some cases, like handicapped people, but those cases are not statistically significant and can be dealt with through other methods (hell, in proper conditions, handicapped people can not only work but in many cases even outperform their coworkers).

There are cases when the public sector has to intervene to provide some services if the private sector is not enough, but trust me when I tell you, feeding people can ruin everything in just a few decades. Oh! And it's not very dignifying.

You'll find that most hungry people are hungry for a reason other than laziness. Even if it's just that they're too stupid to keep a job that pays well enough to feed their growing (due to stupidity and/or a lack of education) family.

As far as I know, there are mainly three reasons why people are poor:
- They don't work (because they can't or because they don't want).
- They DO work, but not enough (because they can't or because they don't want).
- They DO work, a lot, like slaves, but they can't produce enough to sustain themselves.

Now, there are many theories as to "why" you can end up on those conditions, ranging from "not enough market freedom", passing through "need for state-driven industrialization" and going as far as "those capitalist pigs steal surplus production from the proletariat". All of them may have a point, depending on the particular socio-economical situation of a given country*.

Nevertheless, if you (with "you" I mean "someone", I don't know your particular case) received education (public or private, it doesn't really matters at this point), you received sexual education (I mean, the real one, not the conservative "don't do it"), you received free health care (which may even extend as far as free contraceptive methods), all of this in a country which gives you countless opportunities for a job, and still you choose to stay at home and breed like bunnies, I'm sorry, but you were asking for it.
No system can be stupid-proof.

-------------
*: But that doesn't means you're justified to go around with an AK-47 killing anything that looks like it has more money than you do.

Just for the record, I used to be quite leftist myself (and no, the change was not due to me getting wealthy or something), so you can trust me when I tell you I'm listening to your arguments.

EDIT: Changed "anticonceptive" for "contraceptive". Fixed a typo.

[el_magnifico]

Ah, the typical HLP left v right argument...

Right:  COMMUNISM IS EBIL
Left: ur stupid wer not talking bout communism lol
Right:  YOU HATE AMERICA LOL
Left:  dude im dutch
Right:  SO UR COMMUNIST AND UR EBIL
Left #2:  I'm american and i like universal healthcare
Right:  PINKO COMMIE
Dekker:  iwn t more ptoatoc hips

Fine, you seem to know this kind of discussions, so tell me: Who the hell am I here? Because I'm having an identity crisis.

[Scotty]

Mr. Right is generally Liberator.  Mr. Left can be any number of people, depending on the subject.  Mr. Left #2 can also usually be anyone, though zack seems to pipe up for Universal Healthcare specifically a lot.

That generally takes care of the most vocal argument.

[karajorma]

Also, Communism fails, usually quite rapidly, because the power is centered in the hands of the a few people at the top of the government.  So even if you have really benevolent, well intentioned people at the top for first few years, eventually(because crap doesn't run uphill), you get these self-absorbed, narcissistic, maybe malevolent bastards at the top who snag the remaining power for themselves and then use the systems that you put in place to keep things "equal" at the bottom and make sure that they are not equally good, but rather equally bad so that they can more easily maintain power for themselves over the long term.

What's rather scary is how well that describes the American government system too.

You could easily change the word Communism to Capitalism and complain about lobbying without changing anything else.

[TrashMan]

Zack, what do you mean by "people who don't conform"? 

Half of the immigrants?

 

[iamzack]

Zack, what do you mean by "people who don't conform"?

Half of the immigrants?

 

And the result is widespread xenophobia. So immigrants are just as subject to being punished for their social transgressions.