[Dark RevenantX]

If it was only leaked recently, how the hell do we have a thread with the same name about the same thing that says the same thing that is over a year old?

I don't buy it.

(Didn't we have another one of these pop up back in October or something too?  I think I remember another of these, but after the linked thread.)

Yeah, people knew about the document and had a general idea of what it entailed.  The actual document itself, however, has been leaked recently.

[General Battuta]

WARNING: HEALTH CARE DERAILMENT IMMINENT!!!

Zack, Obamacare with its mandate on individuals to purchase government-approved health insurance plans or face a fine, as well as increased regulation on small-business owners about them providing health insurance they may not be able to afford is definitely not pro-liberty, especially since small-business owners are the ones who create prosperity and wealth through their entrepreneurship.

You know, to be honest, I'm a pretty big fan of free-market stuff, but what you just posted sounds like regurgitated talking points to me, not actual cogent analysis. That last clause in particular is just a collection of buzzwords and ideology masquerading as fact.

Modern 'conservatives' want more government regulation of our lives by regulating social behaviors. Modern 'liberals' want more government regulation of our lives by regulating economic behaviors. Both parties ask for expanded government power, and neither should pretend otherwise.

Anyway, you're neglecting an important issue when it comes to health care: there are negative as well as positive liberties, i.e. freedom from fear, want, et cetera. Guaranteed health care, for instance, can be seen as a guarantee of an important freedom.

My ultimate reason for supporting universal health care is this: the rest of the developed world would not switch to the US system. In the US, we are divided on whether it's good. If you have two restaurants, and in one restaurant 50% of the clientele thinks it's great, and in the other 95% thinks it's great, you go to restaurant 2.

[redsniper]

nothing in the United States overrides the U.S. Constitution

[Bobboau]

And now conservatives want liberty for corporations and liberals want collectivism for individuals. So what?

fixt

[iamzack]

Oh, are we using collectivism now that it's understood that everyone *****ing about socialism and communism don't know what the words mean?

[Inquisitor]

Apparently. Though. I give a less than average chance of people being able to define collectivism, given the utter inability for many noisemakers to understand socialism and communism. Good luck with that.

Nothing new here except random assignation of evil to a sitting President.

Oh wait, thats not new.

[Bob-san]

nothing in the United States overrides the politicians' corruption.

Fix't.

[MR_T3D]

this is a little bigger than just the US of A.


I don't like the sound of this thing, but feel better in the unlikeliness of it ever being enforced.

[Thaeris]

* Thaeris pats MR_T3D on the back.

Fear not, dear friend. As the so-called "brave new world" approaches, you will bear witness to both good and evil, peace and strife, and sh*t and fans. So long as you can differentiate between the two mediums, feces will not cover and soil everything.

[Kosh]

WARNING: HEALTH CARE DERAILMENT IMMINENT!!!

Zack, Obamacare with its mandate on individuals to purchase government-approved health insurance plans or face a fine, as well as increased regulation on small-business owners about them providing health insurance

Show me where in the bill it says that, and I might believe you didn't just memorize Glenn Beck propoganda.

[SpardaSon21]

So are you telling me the bill does not force individuals to have health insurance that meets certain government-mandated coverage requirements or be fined?

Also, the provisions about employers providing insurance or face fines per person on the payroll, not just those without, apply as low as 50 employees I believe, and 50 employees is still small-business level.

[Kosh]

So are you telling me the bill does not force individuals to have health insurance that meets certain government-mandated coverage requirements or be fined?

Also, the provisions about employers providing insurance or face fines per person on the payroll, not just those without, apply as low as 50 employees I believe, and 50 employees is still small-business level.

I'm not saying anything, other than to provide evidence for your claim.

[SpardaSon21]

http://biggovernment.com/mrichmond/2010/03/26/joint-committee-on-taxation-confirms-that-obamacare-does-not-enforce-individual-mandate/
Oh, and that article has an interesting twist.  It says that while a minimum level of insurance coverage is mandated (it even includes the section of the bill that forces penalties for non-compliance), the IRS is denied enforcement power under subtitle F of the federal tax code.  It appears that you can still be assessed the penalties, they just don't count as part of regular taxes and interest does not accrue on them.  Non-payment will still levy assessments against you, and they will probably count as unpaid taxes.  Of course, this is before reconciliation has been completed, so they could still amend it to force payments through criminal or civil penalties.

[Liberator]

And now conservatives want liberty for corporations and liberals want liberty for individuals. So what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc

[NGTM-1R]

http://biggovernment.com/mrichmond/2010/03/26/joint-committee-on-taxation-confirms-that-obamacare-does-not-enforce-individual-mandate/
Oh, and that article has an interesting twist.  It says that while a minimum level of insurance coverage is mandated (it even includes the section of the bill that forces penalties for non-compliance), the IRS is denied enforcement power under subtitle F of the federal tax code.  It appears that you can still be assessed the penalties, they just don't count as part of regular taxes and interest does not accrue on them.  Non-payment will still levy assessments against you, and they will probably count as unpaid taxes.  Of course, this is before reconciliation has been completed, so they could still amend it to force payments through criminal or civil penalties.

The fact you are incapable of quoting the text of the bill itself and must rely on secondary sources when called to is somewhat disturbing.

[Klaustrophobia]

seriously, we're requiring proof through direct text that insurance is now mandated?  that is just reaching.  if you don't know that as fact by now, you are in no position qualified to be discussing the health care bill at all.

[iamzack]

Well according to Fox News, nobody has ever read the bill. Which means it was probably written directly by god, I guess.

[Turambar]

They are right, it is a mandate to buy health insurance, and it does introduce regulations on businesses and on the insurance industry.

They are wrong about it being a bad thing though.  Fewer people will be going bankrupt from being sick without insurance, ER visits won't cost the government so much money as the people showing up will have insurance, and (if it works) there will be a shift from emergency care to treating people early.  All this will lead to a more productive workforce that will feed back into the system. 

[General Battuta]

Yeah, I have to say, anything that mandates preventative care over palliative care is going to save a ton of money in the long run.

[Nuclear1]

I personally don't like having mandated health insurance without a public option.  I don't mind being told I need to buy insurance--i'd rather just buy from someone who's looking out for my interests.