Author Topic: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves  (Read 8699 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Pointing out instances where birthright _does_ help doesn't prove that the opposite is true.

The overwhelming predictor of your income and social status is your parents' income and social status.  That's been shown in several dozen studies over the last thirty years.  The "American Dream" is a complete myth.  Class structure is more entrenched in countries where it is "invisible" - like the US - than countries where it is institutionalized - like Britain.  The United States has the largest income distribution disparity of any Western nation - it has the richest rich, and the poorest poor.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
I said I was fine with regulation.  And our government-backed institutions are what caused the problem, not the smaller regulated banks.  So regulate the **** out of the insurance industry, fine.  I'm not even against everyone having to have health care.  I just value my privacy, my right to choice, and an explosion of unnecessary taxpayer-paid government jobs.

We're also the biggest western nation, and were the first to get to many levels of industrial and technological achievement.  So either the others got the privilege of learning from our mistakes, or they're just a little behind.
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
I'd call that 'a little ahead.'

 

Offline mxlm

  • 29
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Quote
In December, 1916, Fisher delivered an address titled “The Need for Health Insurance,” at a joint session of the American Association for Labor Legislation, the American Economic Association (he was president of both), the American Sociological Society, and the American Statistical Association. “Germany showed the way in 1883,” Fisher told his audience. “Her wonderful industrial progress since that time, her comparative freedom from poverty . . . and the physical preparedness of her soldiery, are presumably due, in considerable measure, to health insurance.”

You can probably already see where this is heading. The United States declared war with Germany in April, 1917. Health care was dead. Critics said that it was “made in Germany” and likely to result in the “Prussianization of America.” In California, where the legislature had passed a constitutional amendment providing for universal health insurance, it was put on the ballot for ratification: a federation of insurance companies took out an ad in the San Francisco Chronicle warning that it “would spell social ruin to the United States.” Every voter in the state received in the mail a pamphlet with a picture of the Kaiser and the words “Born in Germany. Do you want it in California?” (“If you are opposed to a thing these days,” one frustrated health-care advocate wrote, “the cheapest way to attack it is to call it ‘German.’ ”) The people of California voted it down. By 1919, John J. A. O’Reilly, a Brooklyn physician, was calling universal health insurance “UnAmerican, Unsafe, Uneconomic, Unscientific, Unfair and Unscrupulous.”

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2009/12/07/091207taco_talk_lepore#ixzz0ju7WXj2y
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.

  

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
It's true! Socialized health care leads to fascism!

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
<snip>
We're also the biggest western nation, and were the first to get to many levels of industrial and technological achievement.
<snip>

I'm afraid that's not entirely correct. Although in terms of gross output, the USA is still no. 1, when you go into detailed makeup of the output you'll see that other countries have overtaken the US in terms of industrial output weighted by GDP. (So yes, the US makes more, but compared to its GDP it produces less high technology than SE Asian countries).

The "advance" that you speak of though is not one of technology, but a legal "invention" of Reagenomics: outsourcing. Also: boundless credit and an unwillingness to save.

Watch these videos:
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-12-debt
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-13-national-failure-save

Finally this is a real cold shower:
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-16-fuzzy-numbers

If you undo all the data manipulation that's become standard in the last 20 years a shocking picture will realize before your eyes:

The USA is actually in a recession.
If that's true that a lot of things make sense.
...also it's not surprising. Without increased production, innovation and at the same time aggressive downsizing, outsourcing what could the end result be but lowered GDP?
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
I literally meant biggest, in terms of population.

People aren't (usually) born into debt.  Abuse of credit is one's own doing.  I have no sympathy for those who constantly are biting off more than they can chew.  One of my best friends is this close to filing bankruptcy, I'm not blaming anyone but himself for making stupid decisions like buying a stupidly expensive truck he couldn't afford.  He's in the hole he put himself in.  I help when he can but I can't do much until he decides to help himself.
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Pointing out instances where birthright _does_ help doesn't prove that the opposite is true.

The overwhelming predictor of your income and social status is your parents' income and social status.  That's been shown in several dozen studies over the last thirty years.  The "American Dream" is a complete myth.  Class structure is more entrenched in countries where it is "invisible" - like the US - than countries where it is institutionalized - like Britain.  The United States has the largest income distribution disparity of any Western nation - it has the richest rich, and the poorest poor.

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Quote
We're also the biggest western nation, and were the first to get to many levels of industrial and technological achievement.


I'd like to point out that's only been true post WW2, before that the center of science and innovation was Europe, especially England and Germany.

Quote
People aren't (usually) born into debt.  Abuse of credit is one's own doing.  I have no sympathy for those who constantly are biting off more than they can chew.


Actually in a way they are born into debt because the hospital bills for having children cost so much. :p I'm also going to point out (again) that according to a Harvard Medical School study done before the Financial Crisis, at that time the number one cause of household bankruptcy in america was medical bills. 

Quote
One of my best friends is this close to filing bankruptcy, I'm not blaming anyone but himself for making stupid decisions like buying a stupidly expensive truck he couldn't afford.  He's in the hole he put himself in.  I help when he can but I can't do much until he decides to help himself.

And that's one thing.

Quote
Bank regulation was fine until government backed banks started competing

So the bad debt caused by derivitives had nothing to do with it? :wtf: There's at least a quadrillion dollars worth of bad debt that came from derivitives. Source The derivitive market was completely unregulated.

And btw, which "government backed banks" were you referring to?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
The too-big-to-fails.  And I don't know a lot of parents that actually hold their children to paying for their births.
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
The too-big-to-fails.  And I don't know a lot of parents that actually hold their children to paying for their births.

They don't have to. Merely not having enough money to send children to good (read:private or moving to a good district) school ensures that their chances will be a lot worse. Add up the inability to get a degree and you end up with generation after generation forced to take worse and worse jobs and not moving ahead an inch regardless talent or diligence.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
So don't have kids until you're in a better spot.  For christ's sake it's not like I made anyone have them.
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Double repost...

Pointing out instances where birthright _does_ help doesn't prove that the opposite is true.

The overwhelming predictor of your income and social status is your parents' income and social status.  That's been shown in several dozen studies over the last thirty years.  The "American Dream" is a complete myth.  Class structure is more entrenched in countries where it is "invisible" - like the US - than countries where it is institutionalized - like Britain.  The United States has the largest income distribution disparity of any Western nation - it has the richest rich, and the poorest poor.

No point in spouting rhetoric without data. You don't have any data.

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
So the rich are like Keyser Soze, the greatest trick they've ever played is convincing the masses that class structure doesn't exist?
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
The too-big-to-fails.  And I don't know a lot of parents that actually hold their children to paying for their births.


They weren't government backed when they got themselves into that mess, that only happened afterwards when they came running in wanting handouts (ie, socialism). Privitizing profits, socializing losses.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Fannie Mae has been a GSE since the '60s.   Freddie Mac since 1970.
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
So the rich are like Keyser Soze, the greatest trick they've ever played is convincing the masses that class structure doesn't exist?

Nothing so conspiracy-like.  Unlike countries like Britain, the United States has never had a true class system in the sense of inherited social hierarchy.  Instead, the myth of the American Dream propagated long beyond the days when it was actually possible.  During the early settlement of the 13 colonies, it was indeed possible and not entirely uncommon for someone to come from abroad and greatly increase their standard of living.  However, this was a result of two things:  (1) a large, unclaimed land mass, and (2) decentralized governing structures.  With the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the subsequent creation of the United States, government began the long process of increasing centralization and expansion of territorial interest.  This pushed new immigrants further and further into the interior of the continent, and many of them did not have the financial resources to push inland.  The American Dream is only possible through freely available property space and promotion of agriculture.

What is commonly known as the American Dream today - rags to riches stories of people who work hard and get ahead - is a complete myth.  Hard work alone does not escalate social status (though it can elevate income level) and eventually even the hardest worker may hit a social ceiling, at which point further income growth becomes exponentially more difficult.  This is because part of increasing wealth is having it in the first place in order to make the social contacts with banks, industry, etc.  There are exceptions; every now and then you run across someone who has totally changed their social status level, but this is an anomaly rather than the rule.

However, because of the mythos concerning rags-to-riches stories in the United States, it is convenient to maintain the idea of the American Dream despite the fact that it is a rare anomaly because it gives the lower classes hope and reduces discontent.  This is actually the reason why the only Western country to endure a Marxist-based revolution was Russia, and also why it failed so spectacularly (aside:  Karl Marx was an absolutely brilliant guy who would have hated everything that Communism has become).  In Russia, the elite structure did not have a mythos to contain popular unrest at social disparity, and it result in a revolution (that made things worse).  Marx actually predicted the countries likely to switch to a communist system were Britain and Germany, and the entire premise of communism was based on the assumption that the country would be industrialized.  Instead, however, Britain and Germany evolved the "middle class," a class structure which was entirely unheard of prior to the late 1850s.

The middle class in the United States is actually the result of that American Dream mythos we were talking about.  Poor people do not live with the hope of entering the upper classes (the 2% of the population that controls 80% of the wealth in a Western nation), but rather they aspire to the middle class.  Middle-class folks, on the other hand, aspire to a sub-divide frequently referred to as the Upper-middle class (typically this encompasses the income bracket of $300,000 to $5000000 gross family income).  The class system in the United States is entrenched based on finances, rather than influence, but there is also a social component that is derived from it and creates an invisible ceiling on upward mobility.

The more the rich consolidate their wealth, the more legal influence is directed toward the maintenance of it.  This also serves to produce limits on upward mobility and increase income disparity in all social classes except the upper class, as any legal tools that benefit the maintenance of wealth tend to be to the detriment of wealth accumulation (through no intent, it just tends to work out that way).  So it's not a case of the rich sitting down together and scheming how to keep the masses poor, but rather an attempt to keep themselves rich.  However, the American Dream myth continues to be propagated to reduce social upheaval.  This last year is truly the closest we've come to revealing the truth wealth disparity in Western nations as the finances of the upper classes were exposed when financial institutions collapsed.  You will, however, note how quickly the outrage over corporate bonuses has diminished and been swept out of the spotlight, and how no real revision to these practices has occurred.

Like I said, the strongest predictor of your income level is the income level of your parents.  Class mobility is exceedingly rare, despite the fact that the American Dream myth is pervasive.

Incidentally, I should mention that, politically-speaking, my beliefs are virtually neutral on a left-right political scale, but skewed heavily towards libertarian principles.  I'm a student of sociology, so I'm quite familiar with the writings of Mill, Marx, Durkheim, Foucault, Adam Smith, and others.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm some "Liberal" (as the term has become demeaning in the United States) hack that ideologically believes in nothing but socialism.  Individual responsibility in society should be paramount, but the reality is that individuals are responsible for very little when it comes to their social status.  Anecdotes of bankruptcy actually support that, as we are all conditioned to aspire outside our actual means.

The problem with self-proclaimed "conservatives" today is that the majority don't actually understand what conservativism versus liberalism is.  Politically, I vote Conservative; ideologically, I associate with liberalism - as did virtually all of the founding fathers of the United States.  People get all wrapped up in political ideology and then tack emotions to the idea of the Unites States as the great capitalist republic, but the truth is that the founding fathers weren't even capitalists in the modern sense of the word; Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson were fellows of the great liberal thinkers, and actually incorporated their ideals into the US Constitution.  The zealous ideals of modern conservatism are actually what a lot of them stood squarely against.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 11:51:09 am by MP-Ryan »
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Thaeris

  • Can take his lumps
  • 211
  • Away in Limbo
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
^I strongly endorse this analysis.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
Fannie Mae has been a GSE since the '60s.   Freddie Mac since 1970.


They didn't start this mess. It was companies like Goldman Sachs, Citi group, meryl lynch, lahman brothers, etc.


"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 
Re: Going Postal - Rebellion of The Wageslaves
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems