Author Topic: Joystick?  (Read 10200 times)

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Offline cloneof

  • 27
Hi guys!

I lone European guy just wondering around... playing Freespace and The Babylon Project, while looking around in the distance at the cd's of the X-Wing and X-Wing Alliance.

You see... I have no joystick, I'm forced to play with a keyboard  :mad:.

Never had the interest to purchase one, but as of late the amount games I own that would just simply work better, or work overall, with a joystick has made me to come to the conclusion that I must get one. The old one is no longer with for service as the modern computer's no longer support it's input wires.

So, could anyone suggest me a fairly good joystick?

 

Offline Shade

  • 211
Keyboard's actually not that bad once you're used to using it. The current #1 player on the FS2 multiplayer ladder plays using the keyboard if I recall correctly :) But as for joysticks, if you're willing to spend a bit of money then I'd suggest something like the CH Combatstick. It isn't cheap, but it's solid engineering and in my opinion with a pleasent button layout - Which it would have to have, really, as the layout is almost identical to that of a real F16 stick :p They also make an advanced version called the Fighterstick but that's probably not worth the extra cash it unless you plan to be using it very often.

If you're not quite looking for something in the CH price range, as they know their sticks are good and tend to charge accordingly, you might want to look at a mid-range Saitek stick. In general, I'd say to avoid logitech as I've heard they have a tendency to break if you accidentally cough in their general direction, although coming from me that's just a rumor as I've never actually owned one.
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Offline General Battuta

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Keyboard FTW!

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Saitek Cyborg Evo is my current stick, although it's grown a little too stiff for my liking after about 2-3 years of use. Would recommend it purely because of the amount of buttons on the thing, however. CH products are supposedly very high quality however.

 

Offline Thaeris

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I've heard the same about CH products - a little pricey, but worth it.

I personally have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, which is a very nice, economical stick. The control layout is quite excellent on the stick itself and does well for flying fighters... or FreeSpace craft, for example. Also, the software that comes with the stick lets you adjust it to about any preference you may have, making it quite flexible in its usage. I wonder if I could turn it into a 3D mouse for AC3D...
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Offline Det. Bullock

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I have an old Saitek ST-200 with four buttons and 3 axis that works just fine.

It shouldn't cost too much, the only problems are that the base is a bit too light and that the USB cable can be a bit short for someone.
For space combat simulators should be good.
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Offline Nuke

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im currently trying to hack an interface for an old 3d pro plus (same shape as the precision pro but without a usb mode). supposidly its supposed to blink of 3 of the buttons to create a signal packet. after looking at the signaling i realize how impressive the thing was. x and y axes had a 10 bit resolution, i think 8 or 9 bits for the throttle but only 7 for the twist handle. nowadays only high end sticks in the $300-$400 range advertise 10 bit resolution. so far my attempts to read it with an arduino have failed, i think the signal level is 3.3 instead of 5v. arduino makes serial joysticks very easy to make and all you really got to do is get the ppjoy ioctrl example code to write an interface proggie. 
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Offline Davros

  • 29
freespace and xwing alliance rock with a forcefeedback stick

 

Offline Thaeris

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I do have to say that for several games a joystick/mouse was really needed over the keyboard, and I think X-Wing was one of them.

Really, the keyboard control for pitch/yaw was pretty terrible, and the only way to get the fighter to be flung around properly was to use the mouse. The fire button was also on the mouse, so there was no real way you could get around using the mouse regardless.

However, I've had other sims where using the mouse was just a terrible idea. The Hornet flight simulators were a prime example - the mouse was just way too sensitive to use as a flight controller.

That said, my favorite means of flight control would certainly be the joystick, but only when the sim can properly take advantage of using the said stick. X-Plane is a good example, whereas something like FS falls in the middle - the current setup only allows so much of an advantage to be had from using a stick and the keyboard/mouse will certainly be needed from time to time.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline General Battuta

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whereas something like FS falls in the middle - the current setup only allows so much of an advantage to be had from using a stick and the keyboard/mouse will certainly be needed from time to time.

If by 'advantage' you mean 'disadvantage', then yes!

Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Battuta, is the glass half full or half empty?

:p
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline General Battuta

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Offline Trivial Psychic

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When I first started playing FS, it was FS2:Colossus, basically the first chapter of FS2 (just before the first SOC loop), which came with my Logitech Force 3D Extreme (at least, I think that's what the stick  was called).  It was a good stick, but the Force Feedback produced quite a lot of heat which, after less than a month of use, would cause it to fail after about 10 minutes of use.  I used to take my time during briefing and mission loading so the stick could cool off.  I even would hold it in the wash of a nearby fan to try to cool it faster.  It would fail by first over-correcting the centering force, then it would start cutting out the FF for a couple of seconds at a time, before finally the FF would cut out altogether... which also meant that there was no centering force.  Also, the deadzone was quite difficult to set properly.  I recall that Logitech replaced my stick 3 times.  The only reason that they didn't replace it a 4th time was because my last stick I managed to nurse-maid for quite a while, beyond the manufacturer's replacement period.  One of the failures was so bad that when the FF died, it took the directional control with it, causing it to jam the detection sensor into a corner.

I had a couple of cheaper sticks for a while... one of which ended its life while I was playing Rogue Squadron 3D.  I was making tight turns with a snow-speeder when the entire stick broke off from the base... though the cord remained attached.  I managed to finish the mission by moving the stub of plastic where it had connected with my left thumb, while I controlled the buttons on the stick in my right.  I had another stick for a while that had a throttle slider on the base, but then I saw an add for a X52 for $99.99, and managed to get a Future Shop to price match it.

There are a few things I don't like about the X52, the biggest of which is its "floaty" nature.  There's very little resistance to stick movement, so its hard to find center and stick movements are quite loose.  I've heard of people who have managed to graft bits of cardboard into the main spring, which had some dampening effect.  The X52 Pro was supposed to have overcome that problem.  The new X-65F is supposed to have pressure-sensitivity ONLY for stick control, and some people aren't exactly sold on THAT idea.

Another thing that I wasn't thrilled about was the lack of any kind of slide inhibitors.  Some of my previous sticks had suction cups on the bottom, and since my Logitech was a single piece, I had been able to hold it in place my other hand, but with the X52, I had more than once shoved one of the two pieces off my lap pad during violent maneuvers.  Also, the data cable between the stick and throttle was proprietary, resembling a PS/2 plug, and was both loose and was positioned in a way that it could get bumped easily and possibly be damaged.  I would have preferred for them to simply have a daisy-chain USB cable going between the stick and throttle.  Not only would it then be more secure, but it would mean that if the cable became damaged, you only had to replace the cable with any old double-ended USB cable, rather than have to send your entire stick back for servicing or replacement.  Thankfully that hasn't happened to me... yet.  Finally, despite its flaky nature, I do miss the Force Feedback of my Logitech... when it worked, so I would have liked to have FF in the X52.  Being experienced with the heat problems, an active cooling system would have been the way to go, and of course a secondary power supply (other than the USB) would have been in order.

Despite all this, as I have said in another thread, I haven't played FS or indeed any stick-requiring game in well over 2 years, and my X52 is still in its box from when I moved apartments about 2 years ago, so its not like I'm running it into the ground, but if I ever do get back into FS, I'll see what kind of durability this thing's got.

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I believe it was the Logitech Wingman Force 3D, which as I recall was a good joystick, only FS2:Collosus crashed all the time when you used it. It was fine when I used a keyboard.  :ick:
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Offline Scotty

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I believe it was the Logitech Wingman Force 3D, which as I recall was a good joystick, only FS2:Collosus crashed all the time when you used it. It was fine when I used a keyboard.  :ick:

I love the joystick (still have it and use it, 10 years later), it just has to calibrated every time I turn the computer on or it sends me spinning in a random direction until I fix it.  Never had the crash problem.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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i first flew FS with a saitek cyborg 3D gold.  PERFECT tension just about, and i rather liked the twist-axis over the rocker for FS.  it made for more fluid manevering IMO.  back in the days of PXO i made more than one person smash themselves on the gany as they tried to chase my uly through it :)  it did have some centering issues though.  i had to turn the dead zone up a little further than i would have liked to get rid of drift.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.

Like Hell it is. I tried using a gamepad once and found it less immersive because I was so pissed off with how slippery my ship handled. I prefer absolute control of my craft with the keyboard. Simple, crude, effective.

To my knowledge, QuantumDelta use the keyboard most of the time, switching only to the mouse for precision aiming. I do the same.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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i can't imagine trying to fly with the keyboard.  having an axis is a necessity for me for any kind of flight.  the only time i don't use the joystic is for some extreme precision maxim sniping at long range, where i'll use the mouse if i'm having trouble lining it up with the stick.
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Offline Det. Bullock

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Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.

Like Hell it is. I tried using a gamepad once and found it less immersive because I was so pissed off with how slippery my ship handled. I prefer absolute control of my craft with the keyboard. Simple, crude, effective.

To my knowledge, QuantumDelta use the keyboard most of the time, switching only to the mouse for precision aiming. I do the same.
I once tried a gamepad too when i lent the game to a friend when I was in high school (he didn't have a joystick) and it was terrible.
Gamepads and old school space sim don't mix up.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor