[GammaDraconis6]

As far as the game tells us, it's basically 21st century capitalism in the 24th century. Human social interaction seems identical. The structure of Vasudan society isn't exactly bizzare either. I know the game is all about the combat, but you would think they could have been a little more imaginative...

Did it ever occur to you people that the T-V war, the turmoil during the Reconstruction Era, Hades Rebellion, Bosch's war, etc...that it wasn't really based around 'hatred of Vasudans' or 'mistranslated greetings,' but that these were just coverups for, well, what 21st century wars are based around...which is economics.

Hmmm?

[el_magnifico]

Well, you know what they say, capitalism is living it's last centuries...

[headdie]

start of the t-v war

Vasudan society is complex and filled with peril for the outsider ignorant of their culture.  Vasudans have a range of social tests and protocols, such as The Conversation.  A Terran mishandling of The Conversation is presumed to be one of the major causes of the V-T War.

that was a diplomatic cockup on our part and it is implied in my understanding of the tech entry that the vasudans started the war though we dont know for sure their motives and that sparked a war that spiraled out of control for 14 years this shredded both economies, now it dont matter what system of government and social interaction is in place there will be an economy of some sort that will need to be rebuilt and reconditioned away from a war footing and after total war plus the months mass destruction caused in fighting the shivans and the decades implied in the reconstruction period sound right to me.

Bosch's war, etc...that it wasn't really based around 'hatred of Vasudans'

the NTF and the war were tools for bosh to further his own pro shivan agenda, so i would categorize that as a war of idealism, and i dont perceive any imperial aspirations in bosh's long term plan, i certainly dont think he started it to put himself at the top of a government

...

now if you had complained about the lack of background behind certain in game situations i could understand but at the same time the story path chosen didnt allow for much more explanation about these events as the player as a pilot wont have automatic clearance for the information in game.

also i would have liked to have seen more about the reconstruction period.

lastly i think if they had gone into more depth some of the plot holes we see today would either not have existed or been papered over.

also i truly believe FS3 was on the cards during development which would have provided the mechanism to explain certain things from the prospective of history

[General Battuta]

As far as the game tells us, it's basically 21st century capitalism in the 24th century. Human social interaction seems identical. The structure of Vasudan society isn't exactly bizzare either. I know the game is all about the combat, but you would think they could have been a little more imaginative...

Did it ever occur to you people that the T-V war, the turmoil during the Reconstruction Era, Hades Rebellion, Bosch's war, etc...that it wasn't really based around 'hatred of Vasudans' or 'mistranslated greetings,' but that these were just coverups for, well, what 21st century wars are based around...which is economics.

Hmmm?

You're not quite paying attention if you think that. The entire NTF rebellion in FS2 was explicitly driven by an economic disparity (exploited by Bosch.)

A number of mods have paid a lot of attention to the economic side of things. Derelict was pretty interested in it, and if you check out the /media/prose section of the Blue Planet website you'll find yourself drowning in detail.

[Spoon]

$1 a ride!

[Mongoose]

Any image memes from this point onward will result in me editing disparaging comments about the offender's mother into their future posts in this folder.  In other words, quit it.

[Spoon]

Any image memes from this point onward will result in me editing disparaging comments about the offender's mother into their future posts in this folder.  In other words, quit it.

Spoilsport 

[Flipside]

I'd say Bosch was more playing on an idealisism of a 'promised land' than any kind of financial situation, indeed, the NTF seems to have an almost religious fervour to it, much like the HoL, but the HoL is far more apparent in its motives. Personally, I'd say that it's easier to look at the NTF's motives (bearing in mind that Bosch's motives were not the same as the NTF's) as an attempt to 'Return to Eden' from which they had been expelled than any kind of finance matters.

For example :

"I have ten thousand officers and crew willing to die for Neo-Terra!"

In a way, that makes a kind of sense, a civilisation has had its heart ripped out, at least the Vasudans have a physical object to look at, and mourn, and know for certain that their homeworld is gone, the GTA, however (in the story) had no such closure, and situations like that will always breed groups who idolize the unreachable and un-knowable.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, but that entire ideology was rooted in the economic disparity between Terrans and Vasudans and the relative poverty that this generation had grown up in.

[Flipside]

Well, many more extreme forms of worship are centred around low-income areas, there does seem to be a parity between the two, but I'd say that was more a catalyst than a cause, Bosch was trying to install an almost pseudo-religion over Neo-Terra, and the best place to start with things like that is in the less well-off sections of society.

[Klaustrophobia]

it seemed to me from the monologues that bosch was using the economic stuff to recruit rather than it being central to NTF ideology.  it's easier to make fanatics out of people who are already disgruntled.

[General Battuta]

That's exactly my point. The NTF was fundamentally enabled by economic conditions, just like the Nazi regime and many others.

[Aardwolf]

All wars are about population growth.

[/blanket statement]

[Droid803]

As far as the game tells us, it's basically 21st century capitalism in the 24th century. Human social interaction seems identical. The structure of Vasudan society isn't exactly bizzare either. I know the game is all about the combat, but you would think they could have been a little more imaginative...

Did it ever occur to you people that the T-V war, the turmoil during the Reconstruction Era, Hades Rebellion, Bosch's war, etc...that it wasn't really based around 'hatred of Vasudans' or 'mistranslated greetings,' but that these were just coverups for, well, what 21st century wars are based around...which is economics.

Hmmm?

I see you've (purposely?) omitted the conflicts with Shivans, the central conflict in both FreeSpace games.
Clearly the Shivans, too, care about these "economics" of which you speak.
The structure of their society isn't exactly bizzare either.

OH WAIT.

[Polpolion]

Did it ever occur to you people that the T-V war, the turmoil during the Reconstruction Era, Hades Rebellion, Bosch's war, etc...that it wasn't really based around 'hatred of Vasudans' or 'mistranslated greetings,' but that these were just coverups for, well, what 21st century wars are based around...which is economics.

No, that actually never occurred to me. Because it's very likely wrong. When you stick two imperialistic, aggressive, growing civilizations next to each other, of course there will be tensions. More so when they are of different species, sharing little to no cultural universals. If you associate that with economics, then I'd sooner debate your definition of economics than the more literary aspects of Freespace.

Also, if you're going to quote the Bosch monologues, quote everything that's relevant. "But what my enemies will never understand is that my rebellion is about my love for humanity, not my hatred of Vasudans." Plunging civilization into war and economic turmoil is a pretty stupid way of distracting a civilization from economics. It's also a pretty stupid way to treat a civilization that you love. Lastly, it's quite clear that Bosch's ultimate goal was a bit more relevant to the GTVA's foreign policy than to their economic dealings.

Heck, it's perfectly reasonable to look at FS through an economic lens like this, but it seems like you're doing it wrong. Combine this and this to get what I think you're looking for.

I'd write up a short marxist analysis of freespace myself if I weren't too sleepy...

[NGTM-1R]

That's exactly my point. The NTF was fundamentally enabled by economic conditions, just like the Nazi regime and many others.

But that's an inaccurate statement, because while it might have been started by economic problems the war would not be possible if they were still in the grip of a major depression, the same way it wasn't for the Nazis.

A precondition of the NTF Rebellion is that Reconstruction has succeeded, otherwise the NTF would not be able to sustain the eighteen months of combat that occur prior to the game. The economic determinist outlook on the war is explicitly rejected by the GTVA in several of the briefings too, implying that the NTF has enough economic strength to stand them off indefinitely in an attritional battle.

[Aardwolf]

That's exactly my point. The NTF was fundamentally enabled by economic conditions, just like the Nazi regime and many others.

But that's an inaccurate statement, because while it might have been started by economic problems the war would not be possible if they were still in the grip of a major depression, the same way it wasn't for the Nazis.

Nonsense. We're talking about a rebellion led by someone within the military. Even if your average Joe hasn't got enough money to put bread on the table, the military still has a fleet (be it mothballed or otherwise) and the fact that your average Joe hasn't got enough money to put bread on the table isn't gonna stop your non-average Admiral Bosch from leading a rebellion with ships stolen or defecting to his cause (and possibly those already under his control prior to the rebellion... he was an Admiral in the GTVA, after all). Especially if he can loot the GTVA's food supplies and use it to put bread on your average Joe's plate, in exchange for your average Joe having set up his dinner table in an NTF barracks.

Edit, having taken the time to read the rest of your post:

That said, if there is indeed canon information stating that they had the economics to sustain their war effort indefinitely, I don't remember it.

[General Battuta]

That's exactly my point. The NTF was fundamentally enabled by economic conditions, just like the Nazi regime and many others.

But that's an inaccurate statement, because while it might have been started by economic problems the war would not be possible if they were still in the grip of a major depression, the same way it wasn't for the Nazis.

A precondition of the NTF Rebellion is that Reconstruction has succeeded, otherwise the NTF would not be able to sustain the eighteen months of combat that occur prior to the game. The economic determinist outlook on the war is explicitly rejected by the GTVA in several of the briefings too, implying that the NTF has enough economic strength to stand them off indefinitely in an attritional battle.

Not sure what your point is here or how it contradicts mine. I'm also not sure what you mean by economic determinist position.

In both elements of the analogy the regime in question was enabled by a severe economic crisis accompanied by a sense of outrage and injury that became focused on a 'hostile' outgroup which could be blamed for the situation. The enabling conditions did not need to persist.

[NGTM-1R]

Nonsense. We're talking about a rebellion led by someone within the military. Even if your average Joe hasn't got enough money to put bread on the table, the military still has a fleet (be it mothballed or otherwise) and the fact that your average Joe hasn't got enough money to put bread on the table isn't gonna stop your non-average Admiral Bosch from leading a rebellion with ships stolen or defecting to his cause (and possibly those already under his control prior to the rebellion... he was an Admiral in the GTVA, after all). Especially if he can loot the GTVA's food supplies and use it to put bread on your average Joe's plate, in exchange for your average Joe having set up his dinner table in an NTF barracks.

He's got to pay Average Joe. Wars have cost in materials and manpower. Yes, you can prop up the economy by messing with the money supply to some extent, but not much. This is not a war of survival (except in Aken Bosch's head and he explicitly didn't share that with many) so they can't really justify spending without end.

That said, if there is indeed canon information stating that they had the economics to sustain their war effort indefinitely, I don't remember it.

The NTF has stood off the GTVA for eighteen months at the time of the start of the game and is showing no signs of strain. Before deploying the Colossus they specifically say that the GTVA might have to seek peace terms with the NTF because the war cannot be sustained. This implies the the NTF is able to go on with an attritional combat strategy even after taking serious losses in Deneb. That means industrial production at a significant percentage of the GTVA's. Economics.

The enabling conditions did not need to persist.

But if you want to argue the conflict itself is about economics, it does. That you can weaponize previous economic conditions is all well and good, but that only makes it possible, it doesn't make it actually happen.

[General Battuta]

So I'm just going to quote myself here, in the very post you originally quoted:

That's exactly my point. The NTF was fundamentally enabled by economic conditions, just like the Nazi regime and many others.