Author Topic: FS2O features and applicability  (Read 6093 times)

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Offline Jakey

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FS2O features and applicability
I apologize if I am being blind, but I could not easily find a good description of the engine features and the game features that FS2O project provides.

I am in the stage of choosing an engine/game environment and I am interested in these points :

Graphical aspects of the renderer (bloom, motion blur, HDR, normal mapping, etc)

Physics engine limitations (the project will employ small ship sizes moving at considerably faster speeds, i.e. 10m length ship would fly on average at 1-4 km/s)

Network code limitations (how well is multiplayer supported, what are the issues, does it support "unlagged" and would there be any latency issues with the setup described above?)

If someone would kindly direct me to a place where I could find this information, or give me a brief description, I would be really grateful,

Thank you.
Jakey.

 

Offline The E

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
I apologize if I am being blind, but I could not easily find a good description of the engine features and the game features that FS2O project provides.

I am in the stage of choosing an engine/game environment and I am interested in these points :

Graphical aspects of the renderer (bloom, motion blur, HDR, normal mapping, etc)

Motion Blur and HDR are not implemented, normal mapping is stable, bloom supported, but not yet implemented in a way that can be considered stable.

Quote
Physics engine limitations (the project will employ small ship sizes moving at considerably faster speeds, i.e. 10m length ship would fly on average at 1-4 km/s)

FS ships generally move at around 100 to 200 m/s max. Higher speeds are possible, but not a good idea, as handling becomes problematic.

Quote
Network code limitations (how well is multiplayer supported, what are the issues, does it support "unlagged" and would there be any latency issues with the setup described above?)

Netcode is not the best, honestly. However, if you do get it working, even a fast mod like that should work.
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I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Jakey

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
Could you elaborate on "handling becomes problematic"

How exactly? what is the issue?

What are the problems with netcode?

 

Offline The E

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
Well, the engine isn't really built to handle objects that fast that aren't weapons; Collision detection may become weird.

Problems with the netcode.....Well, it's not as efficient as modern games are. Lag times are usually in the 100 ms range, which is workable for base FS2, but is something a player needs to adjust to. In addition, it takes a lot of applied black magic to get a server set up correctly. The matchmaking service FS2 employs (homebrew system called fs2netd) has some bugs with regards to correctly forwarding server adresses (at least, that's my understanding; taylor or Karajorma can give better info in that regard).
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
You might also want to consider the fact that modding using FS2O is most of the time a highly annoying and retarded process. You have to work with a crappy mission editor, a very crappy model conversion tool as well as nonexisting tolerance for mistakes of any kind combined with a crappy lack of useful error messages and a lack of or just poor documentation.

Of course that's not what you were asking about, but it seems irresponsible not to mention. :sigh:

And no, I'm not attacking anyone here so spare the flames.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
Quote
<IssMneur> chief1983: you may want to chime in about your experience with highspeed ships in FSO, http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=69250.msg1368017#msg1368017
<chief1983> dont' really have much
<chief1983> FotG is a little faster than normal, but so far it's not been a huge problem
<IssMneur> FotG uses fast ships doesn't it?
<chief1983> it's more that they're fast and small
<chief1983> and the weapons can be difficult to make contact with
<chief1983> but larger ships or autoaim help
<chief1983> although autoaim can be detrimental in multiplayer since it prevents lead shooting
<IssMneur> I think that would be useful information to chime in about
<chief1983> 4km/s is an entirely different ballpark
<chief1983> it's going to make my issues seem insignificant with what it exposes
<chief1983> that's an order of magnitude faster
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Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
You might also want to consider the fact that modding using FS2O is most of the time a highly annoying and retarded process. You have to work with a crappy mission editor, a very crappy model conversion tool as well as nonexisting tolerance for mistakes of any kind combined with a crappy lack of useful error messages and a lack of or just poor documentation.

Of course that's not what you were asking about, but it seems irresponsible not to mention. :sigh:

And no, I'm not attacking anyone here so spare the flames.
Very true, I wouldn't call FRED (as the only tool that I have actually used) an intuitive tool, but it does work and the SCP is slowing improving both the engine and the tools.  Every version of FS2O does get better at giving error messages (especially with debug builds) that are helpful, or giving error messages in general.

That being said unless the bug or deficiency is brought to the attention of the coders we will not be able to fix them.
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Offline Shade

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
I'd certainly not call FRED a crappy mission editor. It can be hard to learn, but that's because once you have learned it, it is a very powerful and versatile editor.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
You might also want to consider the fact that modding using FS2O is most of the time a highly annoying and retarded process. You have to work with a crappy mission editor, a very crappy model conversion tool as well as nonexisting tolerance for mistakes of any kind combined with a crappy lack of useful error messages and a lack of or just poor documentation.

Of course that's not what you were asking about, but it seems irresponsible not to mention. :sigh:

And no, I'm not attacking anyone here so spare the flames.

try modding freelancer and im sure that view would rapidly change. :D

id say of all the major issues with the modding tools, its the model importer. having had several model converters and export utilities since fs modding kicked off, the thing that bothers me most is that we can get satisfactory conversions only by using one model format, namely cob, a proprietary, rarely used format for a modeling program that cant even do the kind of modeling that works best for freespace. i did not mention collada because the only pcs2 builds that support it (i believe there are only two), would be considered by most programmers to be unstable test builds which are full of bugs and annoyances.

granted there have been exporters for other formats and plugins for modeling programs have been made. i was a big fan of styxx's max plugin even long after it got its reputation for chewing up a model's collision detection data. direct conversion is really the only way to produce a reliable polygon format for the converter as the artist originally intended. using intermediary formats, polygons get stored in oddball ways which can lead to data misinterpretation at the parser. its like playing telephone with polygons. the ways a format stores polygons can be very different, where the polygon is stored as a single entity, verts, uv coords, normals, etc. another program/format may want to lump all the verts into a section, all the polygons in another section (using an index or reference to another set of data). a format may store polygons without regaurd for what its connected to, adding an element of guesswork to a conversion process. avoiding unnecessary imports/exports to intermediate formats is critical to maintaining stable geometry.

instead of trying to find a jack of all trades format to use as a conversion source, what we should be doing is supporting as many formats as possible, through import code, plugins for a wide range of modeling software, etc. granted pcs2 was a big improvement over the tools we had at the time, i just wish it would evolve beyond its current state. on the bright side it was a hell of a lot better that the kinda tools freelancer had :D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 01:52:49 am by Nuke »
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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
For an experience of what it might be like to go faster try going above 4x in time compression and see how well you can play. 
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Offline Jakey

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
I would just like to make sure if I get this right. Is the problems with fast speeds related to the collision detection, or are they related simply to the pilot not being able to hit the target? Since the latter one is non issue to me (I am interested in the engine limitations, not the player ones :) ). I.e. is it just going to let the bullet pass through the hitbox of the ship, or not?

Does FS2O have unlagged supported for networking code?

 
Re: FS2O features and applicability
10m ...4km/sec?
I would humbly offer that I am not actually sure I could SEE these things while they're within standard weapons range let alone hit them...
The sensitivity required would prevent fine control/aiming, and the keyboard would just be useless...
Unless you expect relativistic combat distances to be extended by a similar factor, weapon projectile speed almost infinite and missiles basically massively tuned up,  it's not a practical speed you're talking about.
IF You do those things, then you'll end up with combat similar to Freespace anyway.
Though I guess I'm not that interested since what you're discussing is often the first exclamation of Newtonian phailsycs...
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Re: FS2O features and applicability
From memory, the space shuttle does about 34,000km/h whilst on orbit (not sure what altitude).
Wikipedia says that at 120km during the descent it's doing about 30,000km/h, which is approx 8km/s (~Mach 25).

8km/s is about 1/2x10^5 the speed of light (so no relativity required!)

I might point out that whilst that is still an incredible speed, the space shuttle and the space station are still able to meet up and dock - a procedure requiring incredible accuracy.

Jakey: I can't remember why, but I have some recollection that the physics engine doesn't like things a long way from the origin, which could potentially happen at those speeds - hopefully someone else can fill you in on this one.
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Offline Spicious

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
instead of trying to find a jack of all trades format to use as a conversion source, what we should be doing is supporting as many formats as possible, through import code, plugins for a wide range of modeling software, etc.
The source is out there and it's a fairly simple matter to integrate support for new formats, so why don't you add support for your desired format(s)? Unless of course by "we" you mean "other people".

  

Offline Jakey

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
10m ...4km/sec?
I would humbly offer that I am not actually sure I could SEE these things while they're within standard weapons range let alone hit them...
The sensitivity required would prevent fine control/aiming, and the keyboard would just be useless...
Unless you expect relativistic combat distances to be extended by a similar factor, weapon projectile speed almost infinite and missiles basically massively tuned up,  it's not a practical speed you're talking about.
IF You do those things, then you'll end up with combat similar to Freespace anyway.
Though I guess I'm not that interested since what you're discussing is often the first exclamation of Newtonian phailsycs...

Although I was not discussing the content of my project here, and, instead, was just asking about the limitations of FS2O, Ill clarify it up a bit.

The project is mostly inspired by an unknown to most game HomePlanet (made by a russian company) the uniqueness of the game was the ability to implement an interesting gameplay while preserving the newtonian physics genre.

My project is aiming to achieve similar and improved game experience while adding variety of other features, such as ship boarding and in-ship combat.


I saw an IRC log, but I have tried to join the #fs2source channel on the maxgames and there was noone there at all. Could someone give me the new discussion room for the project please?

 

Offline The E

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
Chatrooms are #hard-light (the general community channel) and #scp (for the Source Code Project), both on irc.esper.net.

Quote
My project is aiming to achieve similar and improved game experience while adding variety of other features, such as ship boarding and in-ship combat.

Then FS2 is not the engine for you, as FPS-style gaming is definitely impossible with it.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Shade

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
I might point out that whilst that is still an incredible speed, the space shuttle and the space station are still able to meet up and dock - a procedure requiring incredible accuracy.
Their relative speed at the time of docking is more like 1 m/s slowing to 0.1 m/s, though. The speed you referred to is relative to Earth and as such irrelevant to the docking operation. Just as the speed of an aircraft relative to the sun (about 30 km/s) is irrelevant when it is "docking" with a jetway.

Being able to fly at up to 4 km/s would mean relative speeds of up to 8 km/s, which is flat out impossible for a human to fight at unless said fighting takes place at bvr distances and all actual targeting is handled by computers.
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Offline Jakey

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
Chatrooms are #hard-light (the general community channel) and #scp (for the Source Code Project), both on irc.esper.net.

Quote
My project is aiming to achieve similar and improved game experience while adding variety of other features, such as ship boarding and in-ship combat.

Then FS2 is not the engine for you, as FPS-style gaming is definitely impossible with it.

Thanks for the information,

I realise that FS2 engine is not suitable for FPS action, and ship boarding is a very far-fetched plan, which, undoubtedly, will be scrapped due to time limitations/etc. Hence I am still interested in other aspects of the FS2O

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
I think the game you want to make has already been tried.

 

Offline captain-custard

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Re: FS2O features and applicability
I think the game you want to make has already been tried.


omg you linked a thing by he who shall not be named ..............


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