[Liberator]

I heard something interesting earlier that seems to be pertinent to the way the thread has gone. California, particularly LA, has made a big deal about "boycotting" Arizona in response to Arizona's immigration enforcement law.  Arizona has retaliated, proclaiming that "If you want to boycott us, we'll boycott you and turn off the electricity you get from us."

The fuse is more than lit people, there's a full fledged war going on at the border between Drug Cartels and Mexican Law Enforcement(what's left of it, they're getting shredded) and there are American citizens getting caught in the middle.  Meanwhile, Washington seems about as interested in these events as Nancy Pelosi is in NASCAR, instead focusing on some amorphous healthcare bill that is ridiculously unpopular and making excuse after excuse as to why they aren't doing anything to tighten the border.  They have even gone so far as to have the current President of Mexico, Mr. Calderone to come up and BAW at the combined Congress in what could only be described as a political maneuver.

I'm sad to say that there is a civil war brewing in the USA, and most of it is because of politicians who would rather work people up into a tizzy so they are easier to manipulate than for any really good reason.

Had I my way, K Street and all the other lobbiest holes would be emptied, the people there brought up on charges of sedition and undermining the rightful goverment of the USA, ALL the politicians sent back to their districts and into forced retirement(most of them are WAY over 65) and any and all replacement public servants given a very short leash of 2 terms maximum service after which they also will return to their home districts and resign from public life.  That is the one place the founders failed totally, they could not forsee a time when men(and women) would take a seat in government and then not give it up until death or old age forced them to.  Yes I am well aware that such sharp term limits would hurt the "good" guys as much as the "bad" but I don't see another alternative.
 
In short I would see the current ruling hydra of bull**** shoveling and manipulation of the populace to give up more and more power to them cut off and seared so it won't(hopefully can't) grow back.

[Kosh]

It's not a coincidence that the Tea Party movement is comprised entirely of purported conservatives, heavily backed by Fox News (Murdoch), and geographically situated in the most traditionally conservative and religiously-minded of the American States.

The tea party may not have initially intended to be that way, but without a doubt it was fairly quickly co-opted by the republicans.


What I suspect will happen to most tea party backed candidates is they will do what the democrats did to the anti war movement in 2006: use them as tools to get elected and back into power, then abandon them.

[Spicious]

I don't know why people are so unhappy about Obama on healthcare; the problem is that he's the bank and copyright industry's *****.

I am looking forward to the tea party candidates gaining some power and the whole movement imploding as the religious crazies and the ron paul crazies realise they have nothing in common other than their opposition of the incumbents (and fear of "communism" etc.)

[iamzack]

fox talk show talking points

you make me so... tired

[Bobboau]

It's not a coincidence that the Tea Party movement is comprised entirely of purported conservatives, heavily backed by Fox News (Murdoch), and geographically situated in the most traditionally conservative and religiously-minded of the American States.

The tea party may not have initially intended to be that way, but without a doubt it was fairly quickly co-opted by the republicans.


What I suspect will happen to most tea party backed candidates is they will do what the democrats did to the anti war movement in 2006: use them as tools to get elected and back into power, then abandon them.

best analysis I've seen of the situation on this board or any other I frequent. congratulations.

[Kosh]

The tea party should have done more to reach accross the isle to form a broadbase anti-establishment movement, but interference from the republican party and fox has turned it into yet another whacko right wing group. They are just tools, and when the republicans get back into power they will be thrown away, and they'll have no one but themselves to blame for falling into the republican's lap.

[SpardaSon21]

How can they form an anti-establishment movement by reaching across the aisle?  Large portions of the Democratic party are pro-establishment, and the Tea Party movement is totally incompatible with that.  The best reaching out to moderates and undecideds the Tea Party could do is what Reagan did and talk about individual freedom and small government and entice them to join that way, and it worked for Reagan as he won two landslide elections (counting by states and Electoral College votes won).

[Scotty]

fox talk show talking points

you make me so... tired

Nah, can't be Fox talk show talking points.  He didn't mention Obama by name or associate him with communism/whathaveyou at all.

[Kosh]

How can they form an anti-establishment movement by reaching across the aisle?  Large portions of the Democratic party are pro-establishment, and the Tea Party movement is totally incompatible with that.  The best reaching out to moderates and undecideds the Tea Party could do is what Reagan did and talk about individual freedom and small government and entice them to join that way, and it worked for Reagan as he won two landslide elections (counting by states and Electoral College votes won).

The exploding deficits and debts under the last two presidents (Bush and Obama) is very much a bipartisan issue.  The lobbyists stranglehold on our political process is another bipartisan issue (every attempt at reform was either toothless or was sunk by republicans and a number of democrats). The tea party's unwillingness to build on this has ensured its inevitable failure in the future.

[SpardaSon21]

Most guys here are somewhat reasonable with regards to spending, but the other couple forums I browse on the Internet I hear the lefties crying for more spending and more entitlements, despite those things causing Greece to implode and threatening the economic security of the EU.

I also checked some stuff on Wikipedia, and the United States does much, much better than some people would think considering our lack of "proper civilized socialism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report#2009-2010_rankings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Rankings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_historical_rankings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Very_high_human_development_.28developed_countries.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index#Ranking

Overall I would say capitalism and free markets work pretty damn well.

[Kosh]

Most guys here are somewhat reasonable with regards to spending, but the other couple forums I browse on the Internet I hear the lefties crying for more spending and more entitlements, despite those things causing Greece to implode and threatening the economic security of the EU.

I also checked some stuff on Wikipedia, and the United States does much, much better than some people would think considering our lack of "proper civilized socialism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report#2009-2010_rankings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Rankings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_historical_rankings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Very_high_human_development_.28developed_countries.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index#Ranking

Overall I would say capitalism and free markets work pretty damn well.

I don't think you fully appreciate that the Republican party was equally responsible for getting us into this mess. In the past 30 years we've only had one president who did anything about the deficit, and he was a democrat. Since most of those presidents were republicans that says quite a lot about their so called "small government" and "fiscally responsible" policies.

[SpardaSon21]

Well, you just illustrated a main problem with big government in all forms.  When Congressmen can do whatever spending they want to buy votes, **** happens.  Unfortunately most people in Washington seem to have an entitlement mentality of their own which tells them we exist to serve them, not the other way around.

This is going to seem radical, but nuking the site from orbit just to be sure we killed off all the lobbyists and politicians is probably the best option.

[Aardwolf]

I live within the danger range of the capitol

[General Battuta]

I live within the danger range of the capitol

DANGER ZONE

[BloodEagle]

Well, you just illustrated a main problem with big government in all forms.  When Congressmen can do whatever spending they want to buy votes, **** happens.  Unfortunately most people in Washington seem to have an entitlement mentality of their own which tells them we exist to serve them, not the other way around.

This is going to seem radical, but nuking the site from orbit just to be sure we killed off all the lobbyists and politicians is probably the best option.

I fully endorse this plan.

Of course, since most some politicians barely show up to congressional meetings....

[Nuclear1]

I live within the danger range of the capitol

DANGER ZONE

Since when does Shepherd care about danger close?

[Sushi]

In a sense MP-Ryan's characterization is a somewhat relevant one. In the human mind, categories are defined by the prototype, not by algorithmic-rule based distinctions. Whether or not this movement's stated goals involve religion, the prototypic member is probably religious and likely fundamentalist.

...
tl;dr version: the party's planks don't matter, it's the party's membership that does.

The problem is, what IS the "prototypic member"? Depends on who you ask, and everybody is handpicking people to show trying to shape the perceived prototype in their favor.

This isn't just about the Tea Parties, it's a problem in general, and why an official "platform" is still a useful tool. If you have a formal, well-defined platform, then IMO it gives you a better idea of the "mean" value for the party/organization than whatever handpicked examples get shown to you, even if there was a media outlet that could be trusted to choose a truly representative individual instead of choosing people who generate the most money-generating news stories.

[General Battuta]

The prototype is usually generated as a sort of average of all exposed examples of group members.

[Sushi]

The prototype is usually generated as a sort of average of all exposed examples of group members.

Scientifically, maybe. But what about the rest of us? When the only "exposed" examples of a group you see are from the news, you can bet solid money that the examples are chosen to be interesting and sell news more than to be truly representative. When you get them from blogs, they're even more likely to be picked (positive or negative) to promote said blog's agenda.

What I mean is that although we certainly work based on prototypes, and those prototypes are based on what we are exposed to, there's still the problem that what gets exposed to people is always being slanted by someone, purposefully or not.

[Bobboau]

oh, ok so all the people who were protesting the war were communist vegans who wanted America to burn? cause that's the 'prototype' I would see in the media back during the anti-war protests, which BTW were totally not organized by politically active organizations (astroturfed as it's now known).

I like how we are now endorsing believing what ever the media shows us over looking into what a group actually represents now.