Author Topic: I'm very surprised...  (Read 9077 times)

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Offline SKYNET-011

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I'm very surprised...
...that in all this time, nobody has started an underwater themed FS2 mod :P
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Offline Sushi

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Re: I'm very surprised...
After you! :pimp:

 

Offline Cobra

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Yeah I don't think a mod like that would go too far, you know? :nervous:
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Offline Galemp

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Re: I'm very surprised...
I toyed with it a couple of years ago--basically removing all the nebula poofs and just having blue distance fog--but then I found AquaNox had already done it.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm very surprised...
...that in all this time, nobody has started an underwater themed FS2 mod :P

First problem: gravity. Movement in Z-axis would be controlled by buoyancy as well as pitch attitude and thrust.

Second problem: Attitude of ships. Basically, submarines typically stay upright. You would have to code the AI to mainly maneuver in pitch and yaw, keeping roll movements very subtle.

Third problem: surface of the ocean, as well as the bottom...


Summa summarum. It would be relatively easy to set up lighting and other stuff to look fairly like underwater setting. It would be a task of surprising difficulty to get the gameplay to work out to give the same illusion, rather than very slow spaceships in limited visibility.

Technically, with a working atmospheric flight model it should be trivial to change the density from air to water. Too bad we don't have an engine-included atmospheric flight model. Nuke has some script based atmospheric physics stuff, but I don't know what degree of completion it is in.
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Offline headdie

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Re: I'm very surprised...
i dont know, stick it in the pacific which has an average depth is 4.1 kilometers and you have a lot of depth to work with, other oceans, perhaps not just terrestrially and you have a lot of scope for variety, using multiple sky boxes and SEXPs to flick between them might help with the visuals

...that in all this time, nobody has started an underwater themed FS2 mod :P

First problem: gravity. Movement in Z-axis would be controlled by buoyancy as well as pitch attitude and thrust.

Second problem: Attitude of ships. Basically, submarines typically stay upright. You would have to code the AI to mainly maneuver in pitch and yaw, keeping roll movements very subtle.

Third problem: surface of the ocean, as well as the bottom...


Summa summarum. It would be relatively easy to set up lighting and other stuff to look fairly like underwater setting. It would be a task of surprising difficulty to get the gameplay to work out to give the same illusion, rather than very slow spaceships in limited visibility.

Technically, with a working atmospheric flight model it should be trivial to change the density from air to water. Too bad we don't have an engine-included atmospheric flight model. Nuke has some script based atmospheric physics stuff, but I don't know what degree of completion it is in.

as for "realistic" handling, this is the FS2 engine so i would recommended doing as :v: and throw out the physics book and concentrate on making it enjoyable.  computer managed buoyancy would counter gravity if you want some plausible technobable.

subs staying relatively upright is desirable on modern subs with free standing crews to prevent injury it is not a requirement from a pure navigational point of view so a one man sub with a pilot strapped in wouldn't have this problem and non fighters don't tend to roll in the FS engine especially when following waypoints, trial and error with waypoints ans setting 4-5 digit role times in the tables would nearly eliminate this.  If you dont want the hassle and have a far future setting then just say that there is a gravity management system attached to the subs so crews can move freely even under the harshest maneuvers.

i suppose it all comes down to what ere you are thinking off, anything up to and including near future would be extremely hard work for the reasons Herra Tohtori points out, anything a good distance into the future would be doable and could be rewarding but would require near total conversion levels of work.

a surface could be done with a thin pof with the no collision flag set
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Offline Droid803

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Well, you could just do it like how AquaNox did it. You could never reach the surface, though I don't recall how they did the upright-ness of subs. You could hit the bottom though, not that that's much of an issue now since BP has missions on the moon surface and whatnot, right?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Well, you could just do it like how AquaNox did it. You could never reach the surface, though I don't recall how they did the upright-ness of subs. You could hit the bottom though, not that that's much of an issue now since BP has missions on the moon surface and whatnot, right?

The Babylon Project also has missions above an asteroid. They work...well, okay, but you have to be careful with them because the AI does not handle surfaces well.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Yeah I can tell. The AI has enough trouble with Hecates and Arcadias. I can see them just bouncing off the surface repeatedly.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm very surprised...
...that in all this time, nobody has started an underwater themed FS2 mod :P

First problem: gravity. Movement in Z-axis would be controlled by buoyancy as well as pitch attitude and thrust.

Second problem: Attitude of ships. Basically, submarines typically stay upright. You would have to code the AI to mainly maneuver in pitch and yaw, keeping roll movements very subtle.

Third problem: surface of the ocean, as well as the bottom...


Summa summarum. It would be relatively easy to set up lighting and other stuff to look fairly like underwater setting. It would be a task of surprising difficulty to get the gameplay to work out to give the same illusion, rather than very slow spaceships in limited visibility.

Technically, with a working atmospheric flight model it should be trivial to change the density from air to water. Too bad we don't have an engine-included atmospheric flight model. Nuke has some script based atmospheric physics stuff, but I don't know what degree of completion it is in.

the flight model is adequate for flight simulation but combat is still a long way off. but its just a matter of coming up with an atmospheric model representative of the ocean, i believe it would have a fixed density top to bottom. though im not sure if pressure varies at all due to temperature. theres probibly a practical model available somewhere, and its probibly a simplified version of whats used for the atmospheric model. buoyancy wouldn't be that difficult to implement.

right now the flight model is kind of simple, only really using a single object. its also very linear right now, torque simulation is rather simple. control surfaces are not yet simulated. im gonna need to come up with a multiple object approach so that the model can be broken up into various elements, wings, fins, fusalage, ect, each with its own lift and drag characteristics, perhaps a degree of control to simulate control surfaces. these bodies could also be made buoyant. but it requires a major overhaul of the data structures in the current model.
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Offline Galemp

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Re: I'm very surprised...
im gonna need to come up with a multiple object approach so that the model can be broken up into various elements, wings, fins, fusalage, ect, each with its own lift and drag characteristics, perhaps a degree of control to simulate control surfaces. these bodies could also be made buoyant. but it requires a major overhaul of the data structures in the current model.

You cannot be serious.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: I'm very surprised...
I remember playing a bit of some old PC game featuring a craft that acted as both a submarine and surface craft (it sort of automatically transformed when you were running on the surface) that had an arcadey rail-shooter sort of feel, similar to that of StarFox.  (I have no idea what it was called, though...something with "Tiger," maybe?)  We could presumably already pull something like that off in the engine.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: I'm very surprised...
can i ask why is it so important to have a realistic flight model?
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Re: I'm very surprised...
can i ask why is it so important to have a realistic flight model?
Because if you don't, then any underwater mission is just spaceflight in blue space.

 
Re: I'm very surprised...
Mongoose, I believe you mean the game "Tigershark".
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Offline headdie

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Re: I'm very surprised...
can i ask why is it so important to have a realistic flight model?
Because if you don't, then any underwater mission is just spaceflight in blue space.

and FS is an arcade shooter in space and is one of many games that prove "realism" isn't necessary to be fun.  OK so it would be FS with blue backgrounds, guess what if the story and the missions are executed well it will be a far superior mod to one with an atmospheric/aquatic modeling system and only mediocre story/mission design.  yes these features would be cool, yes they would greatly expand on the engines applications, yes i would like to see them but frankly they are a nicety not a requirement
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm very surprised...
can i ask why is it so important to have a realistic flight model?
Because if you don't, then any underwater mission is just spaceflight in blue space.

and FS is an arcade shooter in space and is one of many games that prove "realism" isn't necessary to be fun.  OK so it would be FS with blue backgrounds, guess what if the story and the missions are executed well it will be a far superior mod to one with an atmospheric/aquatic modeling system and only mediocre story/mission design.  yes these features would be cool, yes they would greatly expand on the engines applications, yes i would like to see them but frankly they are a nicety not a requirement

The main issue I would have with that that there would not be any "upright" position and the peculiarities of submarine combat would be largely unappreciated.

With a hydrodynamic physics model, this would largely be solved automatically, as the players (and AI when done right) would need to stay in upright position while traveling straight and level.

Secondly, calculating pressure would be trivial if you had a surface (and overlaying barometric pressure) on the ocean to start with. Below certain depth, ships' hulls would start taking damage. This would allow an unseen tactical perspective - ships with stronger hulls could go deeper than ships with lighter hulls. Submarines can't dive as deep as you might think. Take for example the large nuclear submarines - Ohio class has test depth of 240 metres, while its entire length is 170 metres. Akula class has test depth of 400 metres and length of 175 metres, German Type VII U-Boot from WW2 had test depth of 230 metres and calculated crush depth of 250-295 metres and total length of 67.1 metres.

So, in most environments, the bottom isn't so much of importance, but surface most certainly is.

Also, since a lot of submarine warfare used to be directed against surface vessels, you would lose a lot of that if there was no way to model the surface, and surface vessels accordingly.

Then there's the matter of detection systems. Active detection paints you as a target, while passive detection would basically mean listening noises carefully, and that would depend on how fast the targets are moving and how much noise they make while doing it. That would, technically, be doable with radar with blipping dots, detection distances etc.

Then there's the matter of boundary layers which cause problems to detection.

And what would you use as weapons? Torpedoes? With automatically locking torpedoes in FS2 style, that would very fast end up in repetitive and boring gameplay. Projectile weapons, under water? Blegh. Beams as lasers? Better but still unplausible.

As a whole, I think there are ways to cleverly mimic some of these things in FS2_Open engine, but it is not very well suited for this kind of thing.

Besides most of submarine combat happens BVR, and there aren't really any observation windows or cameras to be used either - it's done with just sonar data. If you wanted to do something in shallow enough water that sunlight actually illuminates things, then you would need to deal with stuff like how the surface waves affect the lighting, how currents move things, etc. etc. And modeling of marine animals...? :nervous:
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Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm very surprised...
im gonna need to come up with a multiple object approach so that the model can be broken up into various elements, wings, fins, fusalage, ect, each with its own lift and drag characteristics, perhaps a degree of control to simulate control surfaces. these bodies could also be made buoyant. but it requires a major overhaul of the data structures in the current model.

You cannot be serious.

hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are exactly the same. the only difference is the density of the fluid.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm very surprised...
hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are exactly the same. the only difference is the density of the fluid.


Well, not exactly the same. Air typically doesn't undergo phase changes when temperature rises or pressure goes low enough. In proper hydrodynamics you need to take into account things such as cavitation, which happens when the water converts into water vapour - this happens on fast-spinning propellers and is basically the cause of the bubbles coming from them. It causes stuff like increased noise and loss of efficiency, and can even break propellers as the shockwaves from emerging and collapsing bubbles hammer the metal.

Then there's the extreme version, supercavitation, which is used for example here: VA-111 Shkval Supercavitating Torpedo...

Water also is much less compressible than air, but yeah, with simple fluid dynamics water and air behave like any other fluid, only the density and other properties of the matter (like viscosity) vary.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm very surprised...
hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are exactly the same. the only difference is the density of the fluid.


Well, not exactly the same. Air typically doesn't undergo phase changes when temperature rises or pressure goes low enough. In proper hydrodynamics you need to take into account things such as cavitation, which happens when the water converts into water vapour - this happens on fast-spinning propellers and is basically the cause of the bubbles coming from them. It causes stuff like increased noise and loss of efficiency, and can even break propellers as the shockwaves from emerging and collapsing bubbles hammer the metal.

Then there's the extreme version, supercavitation, which is used for example here: VA-111 Shkval Supercavitating Torpedo...

Water also is much less compressible than air, but yeah, with simple fluid dynamics water and air behave like any other fluid, only the density and other properties of the matter (like viscosity) vary.

so noted.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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