Author Topic: Fermi's paradox  (Read 19417 times)

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Offline Aardwolf

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Mutant strains should have been selected for by evolution and now be dominant.

I don't know what that is, but it looks like some weird combination of verbiage, jargon, and alien syntax.

What's it mean?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Mutant strains should have been selected for by evolution and now be dominant.

I don't know what that is, but it looks like some weird combination of verbiage, jargon, and alien syntax.

What's it mean?

It's evolution 101. Self-destructive berserker strains would have self-destructed. Mutants with better survival traits wouldn't have.

 

Offline Kosh

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What do you think the solution is?

Points for creativity in a non-goofy way.

Supplementary question in my next post.


It's because we've been looking for radio signals. Radio waves are slow and have a limited range. I think it's much more likely that whatever star faring civilization are out there are using something more advanced that we can't detect because we haven't discovered how to yet.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Snail

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It takes millions of years for complex life to achieve intelligence, but only a few thousand for them to destroy themselves. I think we just missed them.

 

Offline Kosh

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Maybe. Maybe not.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline DeepSpace9er

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Exactly. It took billions of years for complex life to evolve on earth and it was reset a couple times by mass extinctions and the like. We probably arent the first to emerge nor the last. I think its a statistical certainty that other life is out there.. but intelligent life like us is much more rare, may or may not be prone to self destruction, and is probably so far away they will only detect our radio waves long after we are either gone or developed the means to spread to other star systems. Hell they could be on the opposite end of the galaxy, in which case they couldnt detect us through traditional means even if they wanted to.

 

Offline mxlm

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Blindsight

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Offline Scotty

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Quote from: Kosh
It's because we've been looking for radio signals. Radio waves are slow and have a limited range. I think it's much more likely that whatever star faring civilization are out there are using something more advanced that we can't detect because we haven't discovered how to yet.

 :wtf:

They travel at the speed of light.  Just like every other electromagnetic wave.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 12:45:23 pm by Scotty »

 
And that's slow when we're talking possible hundreds of light-years to the nearest inhabited planet from Earth.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Scotty

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And that's slow when we're talking possible hundreds of light-years to the nearest inhabited planet from Earth.

But still faster than anything but other electromagnetic waves, which are the same speed.  Faster than anything else.  It looked as if Kosh was attempting to say there was something better to look for that traveled faster than that.

 

Offline The E

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Like, what? Have tachyons become detectable suddenly?
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Offline Mongoose

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Only if you re-configure Voyager's deflector array. :p

  
Mutant strains should have been selected for by evolution and now be dominant.

I don't know what that is, but it looks like some weird combination of verbiage, jargon, and alien syntax.

What's it mean?

It's evolution 101. Self-destructive berserker strains would have self-destructed. Mutants with better survival traits wouldn't have.
That presumes the "self-destruction" event isn't flamboyant enough to take said "mutant strains" out as well.

But honestly, I just don't think broadcast communication is going to be used for a very long period of time by any civilization because of gross energy inefficiency, regardless of the specific wavelengths used, regardless of even the medium used (gravitic versus electromagnetic etc.).  Tightbeam transmissions, or even better, lasers, give you better bang for your buck over large distances.

Consider the wireless networks we are currently using and continue to deploy.  They are only broadcast (and even that with a highly directional emitter) over the "last mile."  Everywhere else, the communication is either over hard-line or again, highly directed emissions to and from satellites.  The "last mile" transmissions aren't going to be detectable over the background noise of space for very far at all (I don't have exact numbers, someone could prove me wrong here).  The communications to and from satellites are so directional that even if their power was sufficient to be detectable over RF background noise at interstellar distances (which I very much doubt), you would have to have a receiver at just the right spot.  And, since the Earth is rotating and the satellite is orbiting, the signal is going to be rotating in direction.

So, I don't think we can infer too much from the fact that we haven't heard anything yet.
"…ignorance, while it checks the enthusiasm of the sensible, in no way restrains the fools…"
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Offline watsisname

Quote
Why do you think the galaxy has not been devoured by von Neumann machines, given that there's been time and opportunity for them to do so?

"there's been time for them to do so" --> most certainly true.  The galaxy is several billion years old.
"there's been opportunity for them to do so" --> likely not true.  To do so requires being able to do both interstellar travel and colonization, which probably are not as feasible as we'd like to believe.  Otherwise we would expect to have the entire galaxy "devoured" already.

My guess is that it's "somewhat feasible" to travel to other star systems, but the actual "let's take this here planet and make it new home for us" is not.  Life is very specially evolved to survive on its own planet.  Didn't you see War of the Worlds? :P
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Offline General Battuta

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"there's been opportunity for them to do so" --> likely not true.  To do so requires being able to do both interstellar travel and colonization, which probably are not as feasible as we'd like to believe.  Otherwise we would expect to have the entire galaxy "devoured" already.

Neumanns do not (always) colonize, do not (always) terraform, and do not have anything to do with the life that created them.

Look up what a von Neumann probe is, as well as the berserker and seeder subsets.

Step 2 of your objection is therefore not a factor.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 04:32:14 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen)

:yes:

These make Mass Effect seem unoriginal :nod:
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Hmm, qwib-qwib are anti-Berserker Berserkers?  I'm reminded of a certain quarian in ME2...
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 07:18:20 pm by SpardaSon21 »
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline General Battuta

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Hmm, qwib-qwib are anti-Berserker Berserkers?  I'm reminded of a certain quarian in ME2...

Whoa. Dude.

That's sweet.

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
They travel at the speed of light.  Just like every other electromagnetic wave.


Exactly, slow.


"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Mongoose

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Unless you're holding something faster out on us, they're as fast as we know. :p