Author Topic: Fermi's paradox  (Read 19338 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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1. Doesn't it only appear to violate causality if Charlie is observing things at the speed of light? If Alice sent two signals, one to Bob and one to Charlie, wouldn't Charlie then get notification of sending before observing or being notified of receipt by Bob (Assuming he doesn't pass Bob before the signal would arrive)?

Well...the use of 'appear to violate causality' is a bit deceptive here. You're assuming that one reference frame describes how the events really happens, and another (Charlie's) describes how the events appear to happen. In this model, some people just see the 'appearance' of an event, like the way a distant observer can think that a flash of lightning precedes a blast of thunder, even though they both come from the same event.

It doesn't really work that way.

First off, just take a glance at the second postulate of relativity.

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As measured in any inertial frame of reference, light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c that is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body.

Imagine that you and I are going to have a duel. To have a fair duel, we need a signal to draw and fire at the exact same moment. We know that the speed of light is always measured the same in all reference frames, so we decide to use a flash of light from a pile of gunpowder exploding to signal the start of our duel.

Now here's the key. Our duel is going to happen on a moving train car. We are inside the car, at opposite ends, and the gunpowder is in the middle. We are equidistant from it.

We have brought in a judge, The_E, to ensure that our duel is fair.

As our train car rushes past a station, the gunpowder goes off, light is emitted, and it moves away from the pile of gunpowder towards both of us at the speed of light. We are equidistant from the gunpowder, and since the speed of light is a constant, the flash of light reaches us each at the same time.

The_E declares that the duel is fair, since he concludes that the flash of light reached each of us simultaneously. (Think of the light reaching you as Event A, and the light reaching me as Event B.)

However, JeffVader is standing on the train platform that we passed just as the gunpowder went off. Now, from his perspective, one of us (the one at the back of the train car) is moving into the light emitted from the gunpowder...and the other one (the one at the front) is moving away.

Because, remember, JeffVader measures the speed of light to be a constant! Which means the speed of the light emitted from the pile of gunpowder is not affected by the movement of the pile of gunpowder...which, to him, is moving along with the train, even though to us it was stationary.

As a result, he declares that the person moving towards the light, drawn along by the motion of the train, sees it first, and the person moving away saw it second. He declares the duel unfair!

Who is correct? The_E, who is aboard the train car with us, or JeffVader, on the platform? The_E claims the duel was fair, JeffVader doesn't, one of them has to be correct, no?

Right?

Wrong. They are both correct. Both of their versions of reality are equally true. It is equally valid to say that the duel was fair as to say that it was unfair, depending on your reference frame.

And this means that Charlie's description of what happens in the signaling scenario is, unfortunately, just as valid as Alice and Bob's.

Which leads to something very important: the first postulate of relativity.

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The laws by which the states of physical systems undergo change are not affected, whether these changes of state be referred to the one or the other of two systems of coordinates in uniform translatory motion.

This means that if you can demonstrate that a superluminal signal can move back in time in just one reference frame, it can move back in time in all reference frames.

So if Charlie sees that signal as moving back in time, then his perception can hold true for any reference frame, and causality violations can occur to any observer. (I would struggle to do the math to prove this, unfortunately.)

On to question #2.

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2. Does the scenario placing the effect before the cause still apply if Charlie is only moving at 2/3c?

Redoing the math quickly:

t' = 5/4(.5 - (2/3)*1/1)

Yes. Charlie will place event B as occuring about 12 seconds before event A.

Reduce to 1/3 C and Charlie will again see event B after event A, however.

Remember, though, what holds in one reference frame must hold in all, so really we only need to demonstrate time travel in one IRF.

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3. Why does it matter if one observer sees causality violated? We see the effects of things before the causes all the time, like a bullet impact being seen before the gunshot is heard. If the effect arrives faster than the cause, what does it matter if anybody thinks it's backwards? In other words, just because you observe an effect before a cause, why should it indicate that time has flip-flopped, wouldn't it make more sense that your observation is just slow?

See the First Postulate of Relativity above. The laws of physics hold equally in all reference frames. If they didn't, then you would have one privileged reference frame that was 'more true' than others, and you'd be right back to Newton.

The analogy you brought up is a useful one, however.

When you see a bullet impact before the gunshot, you are actually describing two different events: event A is bullet arrival and event B is sound arrival. Both of these propagate from event C, which was bullet fired.

All observers will always agree that event A precedes event B, because the bullet is faster than the sound. No matter what, everyone will agree on this order. If you stood sufficiently close to event C you might see events A and B as very nearly simultaneous.

But you will never, ever, ever see event B occur before event A (assuming constant bullet and sound velocity.) The sound will never reach you before the supersonic bullet.

Observations matter when they're based on physical law.

And here's why, put in a very (I hope) simple nutshell.

If two events take place in space-time in such a way that a beam of light could travel between them, then all observers will agree on the order of the events.

If two events take place in such a way that a beam of light could not possibly have traveled between them, something very special happens.

These events could not possibly be causally connected. Nothing goes faster than light.

This means that observers can safely disagree on the ordering of the events.

But a superluminal signal could causally connect the events.

Imagine that we take the Alice/Charlie/Bob problem above. Alice has a bomb under her chair. She sends the detonation signal for the bomb to Bob via a 2xC signal, as above. Bob sends it back, to the bomb under Alice's chair. The bomb blows up, killing poor suicidal Alice.

Everything seems fine.

But for Charlie, cruising past at 3/5C - who, remember, will see the signal as reaching Bob many seconds before it is ever sent...Bob will receive the detonation signal before it is sent, and send it back to Alice and the bomb even earlier, thus detonating the bomb before Alice sends the detonation signal in the first place. It's a paradox!

You might ask why this is paradoxical. Surely Charlie's perceptions don't matter.

But remember, Charlie's reference frame is equally valid. The laws of physics have to be the same in all reference frames. The fact that Alice and Bob are stationary with respect to each other doesn't give them special privilege to be right!

Put differently: how can Charlie possibly exist in a universe where a bomb detonates for no reason? Bombs don't detonate for no reason. How can Charlie's reference frame be correct if he sees Alice blow up (event B) but never witnesses event A (Alice sending the signal) because Alice has already exploded? That universe just can't exist, it makes no physical sense.

Which leads nicely to the extra credit...

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Extra credit: And doesn't this negate the example of the superluminal billiard ball, and the self exploding bomb paradoxes? Since the bomb and detonator occupy the same frame of reference, and the billiard ball carries it's frame with it.

Ah, but that frame is not privileged as the 'correct' one. What happens in one frame must make physical sense in all frames.

If something makes sense in one frame, but does not make sense in others, it is physically impossible, because the laws of physics must hold equally across all frames.

To explode, the bomb must receive a detonation signal. If there exists a reference frame wherein the bomb could have exploded before it ever received the detonation signal, thereby preventing the signal from being sent, then the whole system is impossible and paradoxical.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 04:14:42 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Post updated a bit. If you were in the middle of reading, re-read the second-to-last section. I made it clearer why there's a bomb-under-chair paradox by linking it to the earlier Alice/Bob/Charlie scenario we worked out the math for.

 
Well, my point with the extra credit was that because all events were centered within the same frame, that all other frames would be able to agree that it happened that way. If the signal to detonate the bomb had to be sent and bounced off Bob in order to detonate, then that would be at least two seperate frames involved and there you'd have your paradox.

PRE-EDIT: Your edit nicely summed up what I was about to say here, but I'll say it anyway.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Well, my point with the extra credit was that because all events were centered within the same frame, that all other frames would be able to agree that it happened that way. If the signal to detonate the bomb had to be sent and bounced off Charlie in order to detonate, then that would be at least two seperate frames involved and there you'd have your paradox.

PRE-EDIT: Your edit nicely summed up what I was about to say here, but I'll say it anyway.

Wait, the signal's being bounced off Bob, who is in Alice's reference frame.

You could treat Bob as a radio repeater Alice is holding in her hand. They still share a reference frame, all events are still centered in the same frame, but the paradox still occurs in Charlie's IRF as he cruises past.

You're right to say that you can easily construct a reference frame with no time travel where no paradox occurs. But so long as you can construct a reference frame where a paradox does occur, the whole system is doomed to paradox, since the laws of physics have to be the same across all IRFs.

 
Wait, the signal's being bounced off Bob, who is in Alice's reference frame.
Yeah, sorry, I edited Charlie to Bob as soon as I could, but I guess I was too slow.

  

Offline General Battuta

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Wait, the signal's being bounced off Bob, who is in Alice's reference frame.
Yeah, sorry, I edited Charlie to Bob as soon as I could, but I guess I was too slow.

Well, the point still stands: even if all the events are 'centered in one frame', namely, Alice is sending a superluminal signal directly to a bomb beneath her chair, Charlie will still see that signal as going back in time and causing a paradox.

You don't have to introduce the Bob party or the radio relay to cause a paradox. A one-way signal to the bomb is enough.

Remember, there are an infinite number of possible observers for any given system, at an infinite number of possible distances and relative speeds (er, I think) - meaning an infinite number of reference frames who can observe the system. You only need one of them to see a paradox. And in any system with an FTL signal, at least one will see a paradox.

 
Ok, got it. My scenario was flawed, I wasn't considering the trigger and bomb to be two seperate IRFs.

The self smacking billiard ball is nonsense though, right?

EDIT lol: Thanks for your patience Batty, E.

 

Offline The E

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The self smacking billiard ball is nonsense though, right?

No, it's not. If FTL travel is possible (for anything), then a reference frame exists in which the order of events is different than the "actual" order of events. The presence of an actual observer is not required to create a paradox.
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Offline General Battuta

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Ok, got it. My scenario was flawed, I wasn't considering the trigger and bomb to be two seperate IRFs.

The trigger and the bomb aren't two separate IRFs - so long as they're at relative rest, they're in the same IRF.

The problem is the superluminal signal between the trigger and the bomb. Remember Charlie? We worked out math that demonstrated that he'd see a signal from Alice to Bob arriving before it was ever sent. (And remember, Alice and Bob shared an IRF there. All objects at relative rest are in the same IRF - like you and your computer right now.)

Call the trigger Alice and the bomb Bob and you have the exact same paradox. Even if the detonator is sitting right on top of the bomb, at relative rest, in the same IRF.

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The self smacking billiard ball is nonsense though, right?

Not at all. Say the billiard ball is fired into the mouth of a wormhole and moves down the wormhole at superluminal speeds. We can now consider the ball a 'signal', moving, perhaps, at 2xC. The wormhole has an exit at Bob's position.

From here, you can see that Charlie, driving past at 3/5C, sees the ball (the signal) reach Bob a few seconds before it entered the mouth of the wormhole.

Now, let's say Bob immediately fires the ball back into another wormhole, going the opposite direction...Charlie sees the ball emerge from that wormhole before it's ever fired into it, and in fact, before the ball is fired into the first wormhole.

In fact, it just so happens that the ball emerges from the mouth of the return wormhole in such a way that it knocks its earlier self away before entering the first wormhole.

Now we got a problem!

EDIT lol: Thanks for your patience Batty, E.

Actually, this is really fun. I've only had hazy intuitions on a lot of these topics, and this discussion has really helped me learn this stuff and get it down.

They say teaching something is the best way to understand it.

 

Offline The E

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Yes, this is one of the most fun threads in a very long time. Way better than religion or politics.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline General Battuta

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So, Scourge of Ages, you're right that you can't have a superluminal transmitter paradox within a single IRF in which all the elements of the system are at rest with respect to each other.

But the law of the universe is that a given system has to be valid in every possible observer's IRF.

All the problems in the above situations are created by the fact that Charlie's perceptions of the order of events differ as he cruises past at 3/5C. And you've always got to pretend that there's a virtual Charlie watching your system.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 04:59:16 pm by General Battuta »

 
So between any two points, if there's FTL anything moving between them, then there's a Charlie somewhere that won't agree that anything happens how it's happenning.

In the billiard ball, Alice is the front of the ball, and Bob is the back (or vice versa), and Charlie is somewhere in between. Can that make sense?

 

Offline General Battuta

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So between any two points, if there's FTL anything moving between them, then there's a Charlie somewhere that won't agree that anything happens how it's happenning.

Exactly. I wish I'd put it that way on page 1.  :shaking:

Specifically, that hypothetical Charlie will see the FTL signal/object arriving before it departs.

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In the billiard ball, Alice is the front of the ball, and Bob is the back (or vice versa), and Charlie is somewhere in between. Can that make sense?

Uh...I dunno. You may have blown my mind.

I need to go to the gym!

 
Okay, one more thing.

In the Lorentz transformation, what happens if the FTL signal travels instantaneously? Wouldn't that break the equation in a divide-by-zero sort of way? And would that mean that in that instant, everything shares a common IRF, and therefore no paradox?

 

Offline The E

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No, not really. It would be an "infinity divided by infinity" error (which most definitely is NOT 1). The problem is that instantaneous travel is really, really impossible, as it would mean that the traveling object is travelling at an infinite speed.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 05:50:44 pm by The E »
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Thought it'd be fair game as long as we were dealing with hypotheticals anyway. Oh well, at least I got the other part down-ish.

 

Offline The E

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The problem is that that hypothetical cannot be dealt with using the math describing this problem (one of the variables involved is the multiple of the speed of light the signal travels at, if it is set to infinite, we get a division of infinity by infinity, which is indefinite).
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Offline General Battuta

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Okay, one more thing.

In the Lorentz transformation, what happens if the FTL signal travels instantaneously? Wouldn't that break the equation in a divide-by-zero sort of way? And would that mean that in that instant, everything shares a common IRF, and therefore no paradox?

Actually...though my first instinct was to go with The_E's response...

It looks like instantaneous travel time is often commonly assumed when working problems like this. See here.

 

Offline The E

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Yes, from a logical standpoint, you can use infinite speed. But the math (at least, the math I have seen so far, and of course, my interpretation of it) doesn't work if you set the speed of the signal to infinite, for the very simple reason that infinity divided by infinity is not defined.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
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Offline General Battuta

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You are probably very correct.