[General Battuta]

Oh come on, I thought you liked Obama and his administration.

Dude, it's not some kind of binding blanket contract where you like EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING THEY DO ALL THE TIME.

At least not for me.

[Kosh]

Looks like Joe Biden agrees Israel needs to defend itself.

Defend itself from unarmed Turkish cargo ships carrying food and such. I get it, they were really defending Gaza against an attack by Weapons of Mass Indigestion!

Seriously, I think Biden was channeling AIPAC with that one......

[Scotty]

The basic idea is not false.  Israel does need to defend itself.

It just doesn't need to do crap like this.  This is bull****.

[Dilmah G]

Mmm, Israel's becoming more sloppy lately. The passports issue, and now... This, whatever the bloody hell it's called.

[Turambar]

The basic idea is not false.  Israel does need to defend itself.

I disagree.  The world would be a better place if they all just packed up and left for Europe and the US.  Nobody's going to **** with the jews again like hitler.

[Dilmah G]

It makes it so much more stupid that the Jews were treated so badly by a bunch of arrogant pricks 70 years ago, and yet they've become the arrogant pricks treating everyone else so ****ing badly these days.

Israel does need to defend itself.

And has needed to several times in the past. They're almost justified in being a bunch of wankers over anything that happens close to them.

[The E]

And has needed to several times in the past. They're almost justified in being a bunch of wankers over anything that happens close to them.

No. As their american lobbyists keep reminding us, they need to be defended because they're "the only real democracy in the area". Here's a hint: Don't act like the villains of the piece if you want to convince others that you're the good guys.

[Turambar]

And has needed to several times in the past. They're almost justified in being a bunch of wankers over anything that happens close to them.

No. As their american lobbyists keep reminding us, they need to be defended because they're "the only real democracy in the area". Here's a hint: Don't act like the villains of the piece if you want to convince others that you're the good guys.

Aren't they the "only real democracy" because we kept on destabilizing/overthrowing the other ones?

[iamzack]

I thought Palestine elected its leaders, but then we got all bent out of shape about it when they're weren't the leaders we wanted them to elect.

[Splinter]

Fact one: Organizers are accused of having terrorist ties in multiple instances and by multiple sources.

Fact two: Israel AND Egypt Blockaded the Gaza strip for fear of weapons smuggling.

Fact three: Israel warned the flotilla both before It arrived and as it was running the blockade that it would not be allowed and they needed to turn around.

Fact four: Israel offered to allow the supplies into Gaza after inspecting them for weapons or materials used to build weapons.

Fact five: the "peace activists" on the Mavi Marma knowingly and deliberately prepared to violently "object" the boarding of their ship. (The other ships did what they were trained to do and linked hands formed a barrier and objected nonviolently.)

Fact six: In order to prevent even the risk of unnecessary damage the commandos boarded brandishing paintball guns with their live ammunition side arms holstered, In preparation for peace activists with a shred of peace still intact.

Fact seven: The "Peace activists" struck first grabbing and throwing the first soldier to land on board down to the decks below

Fact eight: the activists continued the violence including the beating of several soldiers furiously with metal rods others were stabbed and still others threw stun grenades (what the hell are peace activists doing with stun grenades?)

Fact nine: only after an immediate lifethreatening situation did the soldiers react as any soldier in the world would, and rightfully so, and defended themselves. The kills were most not even from the soldiers on board but from the shooters in the helicopters. The soldiers on board couldn't even get up off the deck to shoot their weapons if they wanted to.

Fact ten: weapons were found aboard including combat knives slingshots random metal rods and smoke flares along with a host of other materials used by Hamas to construct weapons. (Weather you agree or not about the censored items is irrelevant because these "peace activists knew full well and were trying to run a military blockade with forbidden materials and then put up a violent fight, if that is not provocation what is? P.S. don't know why they showed the mechanics tool set I can see why hammers and wrenches would be necessary for the maintenance of the ship but it does not excuse the other materials.)

Fact eleven: The flotilla was carrying 10,000 tons of supplies, most humanitarian. Israel delivers approx 2,000 tons of humanitarian aid DAILY. Well over a Million Tons in the last 18 months.

Fact Twelve: the Hamas confiscates much of the aid for themselves and sell it at a steep price to the poor while building olympic size swimming pools and first class restaurants for themselves.

Fact Thirteen: After inspecting the cargo from the Mavi Marma and the other ships in the convoy Israel tried to deliver the aid to Gaza but HAMAS refused, claiming it would only accept the aid if delivered by organizers of the flotilla.

What else what else... the legality can be debated until we are blue in the face but the fact is that there are two quite legitimate argument to support either side however the outcome of that ship being boarded and the actions taken by it's crew would not have changed had it been 10,000 or 10 miles from the Gaza coast.

As for the Israeli MP claiming Israel fired first, this is what they get for letting people who would call themselves Palestinians before Israelis into the Government (God only knows why) but it's obvious that Israel fired warning shots first before trying to board otherwise someone on the entire ship or surrounding ships would have taken a video of the shooting of their ship before the soldiers boarded. And believe me if they had shot anyone they would not be stupid enough to think no one would respond violently and have send commandos into a situation like that with paint ball guns. As much as you all like to think they are retarded no one is THAT dumb.

As for why there is no video footage of the shootings well probably because There was only one camera on board that Israel had access to which is the camera that took the pictures in fact five and it is clearly seen that the main violence does not take place on the bow of the ship but on the top deck. and the only other shots of the conflict are from helicopter and boats other then the shots taken by whoever had a camera or portable video recording device on board like the ones taking the pictures here

on the one hand you have enormous physical video evidence along with personal accounts of the people involved and on the other side you have just personal accounts of the people involved many of them conflicting I might add. I guess since only my friend was there and I wasn't I have to draw conclusions like the rest of you. But hey, It's all right wing media bias Zionist plot etc. right? 

[The E]

Nice first post.

Only one, little tiny flaw: In a propaganda war (and this is one, make no mistake), it's not a good idea to give the other side easily exploited propaganda material. And that is assuming that everything you said here is the factual truth.

Let me point to your closing statement here:

on the one hand you have enormous physical video evidence along with personal accounts of the people involved and on the other side you have just personal accounts of the people involved many of them conflicting I might add. I guess since only my friend was there and I wasn't I have to draw conclusions like the rest of you. But hey, It's all right wing media bias Zionist plot etc. right?

Unless there are accounts of these events from neutral sources, I am skeptical. The problem is that neither the Israeli military nor the people aboard these ships are trustworthy.

Other notes:

As for the Israeli MP claiming Israel fired first, this is what they get for letting people who would call themselves Palestinians before Israelis into the Government (God only knows why)

Is he, or is he not, an elected member of parliament? If yes, then the reason why he's in parliament is not a great mystery. It's called democracy. Also known as the will of the people.

In fact, let me quote that entire paragraph:

As for the Israeli MP claiming Israel fired first, this is what they get for letting people who would call themselves Palestinians before Israelis into the Government (God only knows why) but it's obvious that Israel fired warning shots first before trying to board otherwise someone on the entire ship or surrounding ships would have taken a video of the shooting of their ship before the soldiers boarded. And believe me if they had shot anyone they would not be stupid enough to think no one would respond violently and have send commandos into a situation like that with paint ball guns. As much as you all like to think they are retarded no one is THAT dumb.

You know what I see there? I see phrases like "It's obvious" and "they would not be stupid enough". The only thing that is obvious to me is that that is speculation being dressed up as fact.

[karajorma]

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it. 

[Splinter]

Nice first post.

First post? do you mean in this thread? You know the counter doesn't count anything in the General Discussion area right? I used to have a few hundred. :'(

Only one, little tiny flaw: In a propaganda war (and this is one, make no mistake), it's not a good idea to give the other side easily exploited propaganda material. And that is assuming that everything you said here is the factual truth.

I agree whole heartedly. However hindsight is 20/20 and this was not a likley outcome.

Let me point to your closing statement here:

on the one hand you have enormous physical video evidence along with personal accounts of the people involved and on the other side you have just personal accounts of the people involved many of them conflicting I might add. I guess since only my friend was there and I wasn't I have to draw conclusions like the rest of you. But hey, It's all right wing media bias Zionist plot etc. right?

Unless there are accounts of these events from neutral sources, I am skeptical. The problem is that neither the Israeli military nor the people aboard these ships are trustworthy.

Trustworthy is fuzzy. In my eyes one side is and one side is not the same is true on the other side. However mine is based on a history of media deceptions and outings of those deceptions by one side not to mention more to gain and in this specific situation one account is supported over the other to some significant degree by video evidence. If I were on the outside looking in this would at least cause me some pause before demonizing one side or another.

Other notes:

As for the Israeli MP claiming Israel fired first, this is what they get for letting people who would call themselves Palestinians before Israelis into the Government (God only knows why)

Is he, or is he not, an elected member of parliament? If yes, then the reason why he's in parliament is not a great mystery. It's called democracy. Also known as the will of the people.

You are correct sir however in this specific scenario, which is unique, it baffles the mind that a member of the geovernment of a nation will outright work to undermine and even try and run a blockade with supplies that her government voted to ban as it is considered smuggling weapons. Is that not treason?

In fact, let me quote that entire paragraph:

As for the Israeli MP claiming Israel fired first, this is what they get for letting people who would call themselves Palestinians before Israelis into the Government (God only knows why) but it's obvious that Israel fired warning shots first before trying to board otherwise someone on the entire ship or surrounding ships would have taken a video of the shooting of their ship before the soldiers boarded. And believe me if they had shot anyone they would not be stupid enough to think no one would respond violently and have send commandos into a situation like that with paint ball guns. As much as you all like to think they are retarded no one is THAT dumb.

You know what I see there? I see phrases like "It's obvious" and "they would not be stupid enough". The only thing that is obvious to me is that that is speculation being dressed up as fact.

The comment on the video tapes is speculation or a safe assumption. I should have said "but most likley that it was Israel firing warning shots to stop the boats before trying to board otherwise I find it unlikley that not one of the people or news crews on the entire ship or surrounding ships would not have taken a video of the shooting of their ship before the soldiers boarded." (the sattelite transmission capability of the press may or may not have been blocked however they would still have been able to record.) However, when I say "belive me they would not be stupid enough" I happen to know for a fact that thier procedures and the actuallity is that they would not have allowed that kind of F*up.

[Splinter]

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it. 

Honestly? I have completly defeated any argument you may have on the subject so you try to deflect already? Seriously? At least give it a shot for pete sake. Apples and oranges man. I mean if it was the gaza strip or something but east jerusalem? what the fudge does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

[Kosh]

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it. 

Honestly? I have completly defeated any argument you may have on the subject so you try to deflect already? Seriously? At least give it a shot for pete sake. Apples and oranges man. I mean if it was the gaza strip or something but east jerusalem? what the fudge does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Hardly a distraction since Israel's occupation is at the root of this whole mess to begin with.

[General Battuta]

I'm inclined to disregard the opinion of anyone close to the issue on either side.

Too many affect heuristics in the way.

[Dilmah G]

That's fair enough, but I wouldn't disregard their opinion completely. After all, it's those people who end up calling the shots. I find it interesting to see what people on both sides think, and where they pull their arguments out of, but that's probably because I'm relatively uninformed about the issue.

[iamzack]

Isn't most of the information about the attack produced by Israel itself? Hardly a trustworthy source.

[Scotty]

Yeah, and I'm likely to trust the flotilla evidence just as much.

In a case where evidence is equally suspect, I'd say the edge goes to the side with the preponderance of evidence.  That's Israel in this case.

That said, this is still bull****, no matter which party's fault it is.

[esarai]

Hey Splinter, could you provide sources on your 'facts'?  Knowing that the only two factions present at the conflict were the activists and the IDF, it's likely that what you listed as facts are actually a twisted version of events intended for propaganda purposes.  Which side twisted them is a matter for further investigation, but without a proper citation of sources, all your facts are unreliable.