[Dilmah G]

Mmm. Does someone who knows something about cameras agree with this stuff?

[Turambar]

Mmm. Does someone who knows something about cameras agree with this stuff?

Oh wow.  I'm really making my surprised face here.  It just happens to look exactly like my "i saw that one coming" face.

[Scotty]

When the opening introduction paragraph refers to the subject as "ziofascist murder," I'm severely strained in my ability to believe that this is anything close to objective.

EDIT:  Even moreso when the article author goes on to say "Being fanatic is good" down in the comments.

[karajorma]

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it.  

Honestly? I have completly defeated any argument you may have on the subject so you try to deflect already? Seriously? At least give it a shot for pete sake. Apples and oranges man. I mean if it was the gaza strip or something but east jerusalem? what the fudge does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Honestly? I was in a hurry and I wanted to see if you'd come up with a justification for that one. I don't have enough time to waste any arguing with fanatics who think there is one.

If you proved stupidly unreasonable on a clear cut topic it wouldn't be worth wasting time on one that is much more shades of grey.

So... Demolishing houses in East Jerusalem, ****ing stupid, right?

[Dilmah G]

When the opening introduction paragraph refers to the subject as "ziofascist murder," I'm severely strained in my ability to believe that this is anything close to objective.

EDIT:  Even moreso when the article author goes on to say "Being fanatic is good" down in the comments.

Well, I was linked to the article by my socialist mate, so...

[Klaustrophobia]

i have to agree, i personally give that article a zero for credibility.

[redsniper]

Hmmm.... To quote the middle eastern guy from Office Space

This is a ****!

[Nemesis6]

Putting aside the problem of boarding in international waters for a second, the activists clearly wanted a reaction, ignored Israeli attempts to compromise(passing the shipments through the land crossings into Gaza) and staged this whole thing for propaganda purposes. I can't take it seriously when they claim victimhood after attacking and trying to abduct soldiers. The Israelis claim they fired in self-defence after activists had grabbed weapon and equipment from one or more of the soldiers they'd managed to ferry away away from the group.

Also, speaking of the starving people of Gaza, I'll just post some Ziofascist(They moved away from "ZioNazi", how classy of them) lies on that subject if that's alright: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Israeli_humanitarian_lifeline_Gaza_25-May-2010.htm

All of that aside, I don't understand why Israel didn't just block the ship - These guys may be ideologically motivated, but after a week at sea, they're probably not gonna be that enthusiastic about sparring with the Israeli navy for much longer.

The way I see it: Israel warned them, tried to reach a compromise, was ignored, and then ****ed up royally by trying to board a ship with that many armed activists on it.

[iamzack]

Afraid I'm not seeing why Israel holds all the rights to Palestine's waters. Maybe Palestinians should blockade Israel's waters. For fairness!

[SpardaSon21]

It happens to be perfectly legal to blockade hostile territory.  Since Gaza is renowned for firing rockets into Israel, it definitely falls under the definition of hostile territory.

[iamzack]

Israel fires rockets into Palestine too.

Who is really the hostile territory here?

[Iss Mneur]

[snip]

All of that aside, I don't understand why Israel didn't just block the ship - These guys may be ideologically motivated, but after a week at sea, they're probably not gonna be that enthusiastic about sparring with the Israeli navy for much longer.

[snip]

You know that the normal way of enforcing a naval blockade is to just sink the ships that run past the line?

[SpardaSon21]

Zack, hostile territory is anyone attacking you.  So it goes both ways.   If the Palestinians want to try and blockade Israel they're certainly welcome to try, its just that Israel might take offense at the temerity of a bunch of armed rabble (they aren't anything but rabble armed with AK's and RPG's) who think they can enforce a naval blockade with nothing but wooden boats and shoulder-launched rockets.  That would also be seen as a direct attack on Israel by the international community, rather than their "defensive tactics" of lobbing rockets at anything Israeli in range.  If Hamas does anything like that, then Israel can go ahead and claim casus belli (since declaring a blockade is practically declaring war) to go in and steamroll Gaza and the West Bank.

Anyways, that armistice line is from what, 1949?  I believe Israel took all that territory as just spoils from Jordan and Egypt, after they attacked first.  I don't see anything wrong with that since if aggressors can take territory as part of war, its only fair for the defenders to be able to as well.  Israel actually owned the entire Sinai Peninsula for a time until they gave it back to Egypt.

Iss Mneur, Israel is catching a ton of **** for simply boarding these vessels.  How bad do you think things would be if they had sunk them?  Keep in mind there were children on these vessels, and if you think this is bad for Israel now, things would be a lot worse if the Palestinians were able to go out and talk about Israel callously sinking ships with children on them.

[General Battuta]

(they aren't anything but rabble armed with AK's and RPG's)

Ah, the casual arrogance of those who disregard history.

I'll take it way back and envision

LORD SPARDASON OF BULKWISTERSHIRE

He RECLINETH in his PALATIAL ESTATE, reading REPORTS from the COLONIES.

"Bah!" sayeth SPARDASON, adjusting his POWDERED WIG. "They are nothing but rabble armed with HUNTING RIFLES and STOLEN CANNON."

[Titan]

I think Israels kinda jerk-ish for going along with the 'kick Palestines out and place the Jews there in the middle of a bunch of people they're gonna piss off' thing.

I think we're jerks for supporting them. I actually was reading my history textbook today and saw a little side-bar paragraph that couldn't have been written better by an Israeli propagandist. Here, I'll copy it:

The State of Israel
On May 14, 1948, Jews and many non-Jews around the world celebrated the birth of the modern state of Israel. Israel owes its existence in part to the idea of the Promised Land. Jewish tradition kept that idea alive for almost 19 centuries after Jewish rule had ended in Palestine. By the 1800s, persecution of Jews in Europe led many to believe that Jews should returnto them to the land given to them by God - to Palestine.
In the late 1800s, a movement called Zionism called for "a (Jewish) home in Palestine secured by law." In 1947, after the horrors of Nazism, the United Nations answered that call. It established Israel as a Jewish Homeland. Jews had regained their Promised Land.

[Sandwich]

Mmm. Does someone who knows something about cameras agree with this stuff?

The guy seems off his rocker with bias. Also, he doesn't know much about IR cameras. I've had opportunity to play around with the infrared cameras the IDF uses a couple of years back, during reserve duty. They definitely do have shades of gray; IR merely detects the various levels of heat radiating from objects in view. Obviously, some objects are warm or hot (human bodies - heads in particular - or smokestacks, vehicle wheels, engines, and exhaust if the vehicle has been driving for a bit, etc), while other objects are cold (mainly the ground and vegetation). Since cold is merely relative, a lack of heat relative to the observer (ice cubes, after all, are pretty darn hot relative to the cold of space), the IR sensitivity is typically set with the top of the scale being the hottest object on-screen. Obviously, some parts of a picture will be warmer than others, thus some parts of the IR image will be darker/lighter (it's a toggle) than others: grayscale.

On the question of the legality of the Israeli actions:

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

PART III, SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it. 

Israel tends to demolish lots of illegal housing. Sometimes it's even Palestinian housing.

Why do cops arrest drug dealers who are black, or hispanic, or whatever the minority of the day is these days - isn't that racist? Shouldn't they only arrest drug dealing white men from middle-income households? It's not the who, it's the what. It's not Palestinian houses being demolished, but illegal houses.

Finally, the only reason I'm in this thread to begin with is because a friend sent me a video. I watched it and thought to myself, "If there's a thread on HLP with a bunch of mindless sheep kvetching about Israel's actions against the flotilla, I'll post this video." So, since you guys are so lovingly predictable, here, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXhcmQmOuds

[Shade]

Yeah that site Dilmah linked is pretty much a textbook example of bias. If anyone here is honestly prepared to trust a site using that kind of rhetoric, I weep for us all.

Anyway, personally, I've no doubt that Israel were legally allowed to stop the ships from breaking their blockade. However, the way they went about it was utterly stupid. I mean, seriously, what kind of incompetents are running the show in the IDF these days? Israel needs to be very careful of public opinion in those countries it can call allies (which isn't too many by now), and angering them by running an operation like this is not a smart move. And coming on top of several other not-smart-moves in recent times, Israelis really ought to take notice and maybe use their votes to put someone in charge who isn't hell bent on self destruction.

Basically I guess that what I'm saying is that Israel needs to grow up and start acting responsibly. The policy lately seems to be little more than eye-for-an-eye spiced up with random snafus on an international scale, legal or not. Where's another Rabin when you need him?

[iamzack]

The State of Israel
On May 14, 1948, Jews and many non-Jews around the world celebrated the birth of the modern state of Israel. Israel owes its existence in part to the idea of the Promised Land. Jewish tradition kept that idea alive for almost 19 centuries after Jewish rule had ended in Palestine. By the 1800s, persecution of Jews in Europe led many to believe that Jews should returnto them to the land given to them by God - to Palestine.
In the late 1800s, a movement called Zionism called for "a (Jewish) home in Palestine secured by law." In 1947, after the horrors of Nazism, the United Nations answered that call. It established Israel as a Jewish Homeland. Jews had regained their Promised Land.

That was in our textbooks too. Cemented the idea in my head that Israel has no right to exist. Gays were killed in the Holocaust too, but you don't see us demanding our very own country.

[Splinter]

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it. 

Honestly? I have completely defeated any argument you may have on the subject so you try to deflect already? Seriously? At least give it a shot for Pete sake. Apples and oranges man. I mean if it was the Gaza strip or something but east Jerusalem? what the fudge does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Hardly a distraction since Israel's occupation is at the root of this whole mess to begin with.

You can pick any random date or event in the last 63 years and call that the root of all this. How about the creation of the State itself? How about the 1956 war? or the 67? or the one in the 70's? or the Lebanon war in the 80's? maybe the first intifada? or the second? The election of the Hamas? The 2nd Lebanon war?

Hey Splinter, could you provide sources on your 'facts'?  Knowing that the only two factions present at the conflict were the activists and the IDF, it's likely that what you listed as facts are actually a twisted version of events intended for propaganda purposes.  Which side twisted them is a matter for further investigation, but without a proper citation of sources, all your facts are unreliable.

the sources for my "facts" are all linked to in the post. Video evidence or news articles which is the source of the "evidence" everyone in here is using to incriminate the actions so it's as viable as their "facts". You want %100? You would have had to have been there. I can't say that I was neither can anyone else here. And the people who claim they were are kinda disagreeing on the events. Sooooooo it's kinda F*ed. We have to make do with what we can and try and sift through.

But you know everyone has posted plenty of evidence negating the points I made so there are viable arguments on both sides going on, so far it's pretty even... 

Mmm. Does someone who knows something about cameras agree with this stuff?

as for some of the points made there here are my thoughts.

1. dozens of videos on every news source has shown violence even from the cameras of the passengers aboard... utter BS

2. I have no idea

3. The cameras on the ship could have been mounted on (not sure how to say this) something like a level used in construction where the camera automatically balances to show a straight horizontal picture.

4. Had some advanced IR on our tank that showed imaged like that but I guess my input right here would be worthless since I, admittedly, am very close to the situation.

5. for exactly the purpose which it has gone to serve... worldwide condemnation.

Glad you're here Splinter. Now explain why demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem is also a good idea while you're at it.  

Honestly? I have completely defeated any argument you may have on the subject so you try to deflect already? Seriously? At least give it a shot for Pete sake. Apples and oranges man. I mean if it was the Gaza strip or something but east Jerusalem? what the fudge does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Honestly? I was in a hurry and I wanted to see if you'd come up with a justification for that one. I don't have enough time to waste any arguing with fanatics who think there is one.

If you proved stupidly unreasonable on a clear cut topic it wouldn't be worth wasting time on one that is much more shades of grey.

So... Demolishing houses in East Jerusalem, ****ing stupid, right?

So if I agree that it's stupid you will make time to argue because I am not a fanatic but if I disagree I am a raving fanatic and not worth your time. And again I have produced great amounts of sources and some evidence to support my argument so stupidly unreasonable? I would call that uncalled for and close minded if not completely blinded by bias and outright hatred.

Yeah that site Dilmah linked is pretty much a textbook example of bias. If anyone here is honestly prepared to trust a site using that kind of rhetoric, I weep for us all.

Anyway, personally, I've no doubt that Israel were legally allowed to stop the ships from breaking their blockade. However, the way they went about it was utterly stupid. I mean, seriously, what kind of incompetents are running the show in the IDF these days? Israel needs to be very careful of public opinion in those countries it can call allies (which isn't too many by now), and angering them by running an operation like this is not a smart move. And coming on top of several other not-smart-moves in recent times, Israelis really ought to take notice and maybe use their votes to put someone in charge who isn't hell bent on self destruction.

Careful about public opinion? I suppose boarding a ship with painball guns and after a major violent encounter still offering to send the relief aid is just them sticking it to the man right? Big middle finger to everyone and their opinions we are going in with paintball guns blazing HOOORAH! 

Because the whole stupid encounter wouldn't have been avoided had Israel not been bending over backwards to appease the "world opinion". They wouldn't have done anything similar to the operational procedures of any other military around the world. Nope lalala oh look! a unicorn! It's ****ting daisies and spitting chocolate!

Basically I guess that what I'm saying is that Israel needs to grow up and start acting responsibly. The policy lately seems to be little more than eye-for-an-eye spiced up with random snafus on an international scale, legal or not. Where's another Rabin when you need him?

Responsibly?! Like how about boarding with real guns. THAT would have been responsible.

If Israel tried to appease the world any more and prevent harm to people they would have boarded ass first with their pants down. They start violence and no matter what the response it's never enough. This has moved from ridiculous to outright insanity. What's next? Navy seals with wiffle bats? maybe some border police with potato guns? I know the next patrol I go on I will take a twig. I'll try and use it like a whip and say "this is for Shade" now you can't condemn me for being evil murderer... unless of course the twig happens to enter his mouth and choke him then I'm sure someone would find reason to condemn me to death. It doesn't take a fortune teller to see you have a rude awakening in your future.

[Shade]

Wow. Troll much? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and you're as biased at that ridiculous site that claimed the IDF video was false, only in the other direction. Apparently, you also can't read, or at least choose not to. You're putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Try again, and this time think before you post.