[Sandwich]

Wow. Troll much? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and you're as biased at that ridiculous site that claimed the IDF video was false, only in the other direction. Apparently, you also can't read, or at least choose not to. You're putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Try again, and this time think before you post.

Indeed, clearly, because neither he nor I have spent 3+ years in the IDF, seeing things firsthand, right? But of course, instead of that making people like us witnesses, it makes us biased. Well, both are true simultaneously. I've been a witness to quite a lot, as has Splinter. We've seen things first-hand, and you know what? We're biased in favor of what our eyes - not a TV screen or reporter's words - have seen.

Now, I can't claim firsthand knowledge of anything to do with the current SNAFU. What I do claim knowledge of is the moral restrictions placed on the soldiers of the IDF. I know the kinds of priorities the IDF places on life - and if anyone cares to think about it, they would too (what's the going Palestinian prisoner exchange rate these days? 1000+ to 1?). So when video footage shows one thing, IDF reports state the same that thing, but the people the IDF was operating against claim something else, I kinda tend to side with the guys with the video footage.

Tell me, what would you have seen Israel do once that flotilla set sail? What human sacrifice could Israel have offered up on the alter of world opinion that would have kept the wolves at bay? It was a lose-lose situation for Israel, no matter what we would have done - the media loves depicting us as the bad guys, and the Palestinians as the oppressed underdogs. Well, guess what - they are oppressed: by Hamas, and every other organization that puts pro-suicide bombing education in schools, steals their resources, and uses their homes as launching pads for their weapons of terror so that when Israel returns fire at the launch site, we end up killing innocent civilians and the media gets their frenzy.

Israel is a nuclear power. Nobody admits it (except for me - hey, I just said it!), but everybody knows it's true. If we wanted the Palestinians dead, they would be dead. If we wanted them kicked-out from where they are, they would be gone (we kicked our own people out of Gaza for a slim chance at "peace", and got a major increase in rocket barrages in return). If we wanted a full-blown war, it would have happened years ago. We don't mind having the Palestinians as neighbors, having Arab-Israelis living among the Jewish-Israelis - as long as they're willing to live in peace with us in return. But until they stop educating their children - children, for God's sake! - that dying as suicide bombers is a good thing, I don't see that happening.

I've become a father of 2 daughters in the past 2 years, one 2 years old, one 4 months. Children are so malleable and eager to copy the grown-ups, it's amazing. My wife was used to calling me by my first name around the house, but she finally switched to calling me "Abba" (Dad in Hebrew) when my 2-year old called out for me one day, "Michael?" Craziest thing... Anyway, my point is that being a parent teaches you so much about the trusting nature of children, that seeing people abuse that trust intentionally boils the blood.

Anyway, I've said enough, probably most of it rambling, but it's 4am and I gotta go feed the 4-month old. She tends to give these ear-piercing, "Mariah Carey" screams (as my wife calls them) instead of merely crying when she's unhappy, but her smiles make up for it a thousand times.

[iamzack]

the media loves depicting us as the bad guys, and the Palestinians as the oppressed underdogs.

Uhh... What media? Certainly not US media, lol.

Anyway, to be honest, the more research I do, the more I'm convinced Israel shouldn't even be there. All this talk about rockets, but Palestinian casualties are several times that of Israeli casualties to date. The IDF repeatedly kills nonviolent protesters. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been forced out of their homes.

Meanwhile Israeli settlers continue to build illegal outposts all over the place, and then destroy Palestinian homes, crops, et cetera.

All over a claim that a god gave them the land?

Maybe the American Indians should rise up and take the land a god gave them. After all, they have ancestral rights to it!

[General Battuta]

Wow. Troll much? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and you're as biased at that ridiculous site that claimed the IDF video was false, only in the other direction. Apparently, you also can't read, or at least choose not to. You're putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Try again, and this time think before you post.

Indeed, clearly, because neither he nor I have spent 3+ years in the IDF, seeing things firsthand, right? But of course, instead of that making people like us witnesses, it makes us biased. Well, both are true simultaneously. I've been a witness to quite a lot, as has Splinter. We've seen things first-hand, and you know what? We're biased in favor of what our eyes - not a TV screen or reporter's words - have seen.

Now, I can't claim firsthand knowledge of anything to do with the current SNAFU. What I do claim knowledge of is the moral restrictions placed on the soldiers of the IDF. I know the kinds of priorities the IDF places on life - and if anyone cares to think about it, they would too (what's the going Palestinian prisoner exchange rate these days? 1000+ to 1?). So when video footage shows one thing, IDF reports state the same that thing, but the people the IDF was operating against claim something else, I kinda tend to side with the guys with the video footage.

Tell me, what would you have seen Israel do once that flotilla set sail? What human sacrifice could Israel have offered up on the alter of world opinion that would have kept the wolves at bay? It was a lose-lose situation for Israel, no matter what we would have done - the media loves depicting us as the bad guys, and the Palestinians as the oppressed underdogs. Well, guess what - they are oppressed: by Hamas, and every other organization that puts pro-suicide bombing education in schools, steals their resources, and uses their homes as launching pads for their weapons of terror so that when Israel returns fire at the launch site, we end up killing innocent civilians and the media gets their frenzy.

Israel is a nuclear power. Nobody admits it (except for me - hey, I just said it!), but everybody knows it's true. If we wanted the Palestinians dead, they would be dead. If we wanted them kicked-out from where they are, they would be gone (we kicked our own people out of Gaza for a slim chance at "peace", and got a major increase in rocket barrages in return). If we wanted a full-blown war, it would have happened years ago. We don't mind having the Palestinians as neighbors, having Arab-Israelis living among the Jewish-Israelis - as long as they're willing to live in peace with us in return. But until they stop educating their children - children, for God's sake! - that dying as suicide bombers is a good thing, I don't see that happening.

I've become a father of 2 daughters in the past 2 years, one 2 years old, one 4 months. Children are so malleable and eager to copy the grown-ups, it's amazing. My wife was used to calling me by my first name around the house, but she finally switched to calling me "Abba" (Dad in Hebrew) when my 2-year old called out for me one day, "Michael?" Craziest thing... Anyway, my point is that being a parent teaches you so much about the trusting nature of children, that seeing people abuse that trust intentionally boils the blood.

Anyway, I've said enough, probably most of it rambling, but it's 4am and I gotta go feed the 4-month old. She tends to give these ear-piercing, "Mariah Carey" screams (as my wife calls them) instead of merely crying when she's unhappy, but her smiles make up for it a thousand times.

While this is a compelling post, I can't help but feel that someone in the same position on the other side could produce something similar and equally deserving of consideration.

It's a messy situation.  

[karajorma]

Israel is a nuclear power. Nobody admits it (except for me - hey, I just said it!), but everybody knows it's true. If we wanted the Palestinians dead, they would be dead.

Along with your only bargaining chip, the collective guilt the Western world feels over WWII.

Hey, I said it too.

[Shade]

Indeed, clearly, because neither he nor I have spent 3+ years in the IDF, seeing things firsthand, right? But of course, instead of that making people like us witnesses, it makes us biased. Well, both are true simultaneously. I've been a witness to quite a lot, as has Splinter. We've seen things first-hand, and you know what? We're biased in favor of what our eyes - not a TV screen or reporter's words - have seen.

He may well have. But he's still acting very much the troll, deliberately misinterpreting what I posted and putting a spin on it that has nothing to do with what was actually said. This is what I'm referring to. He could be a general for all I care, he's still making an ass of himself in that post. I suppose that there may be some major feelings involved on his part, but if so then it's time to cool down rather than post as he did.

You, on the other hand, are not making an ass of yourself. So you'll get the reply he could have recieve if he'd cared to actually discuss rather than mock

Tell me, what would you have seen Israel do once that flotilla set sail?

The thing is, I think the mistake here wasn't using too much force. The mistake was in using far too little. When you drop a relatively small group onto a ship of potential hostiles, you are pretty much asking them to attack you. Feelings take over, they sense that they can win, and mob mentality kicks in. It's the same situation you'd get if you sent a single police car into a riot-prone area of town to arrest a local - People don't give themselves up, rather, they start throwing rocks.

What you need in a situation like this is a show of force. You need to make it clear from the beginning that you're in control and that you're prepared for whatever is going to happen. You need enough people involved that you can be confident of not getting overrun. Feelings will be hurt, people will be bruised, but chances are good that noone will be killed. Waiting until the ship was not deep in international waters would have been a good move too - Even if it isn't legally required in the case of a blockade, I don't see how hitting it that far out could've been operationally necessary, and doing so is just giving the media an excuse to villify Israel. Again.

they are oppressed: by Hamas, and every other organization that puts pro-suicide bombing education in schools, steals their resources, and uses their homes as launching pads for their weapons of terror so that when Israel returns fire at the launch site, we end up killing innocent civilians and the media gets their frenzy.

Agreed. The general palestinian populace are far more a victim of their own fundamentalist minority than they are of Israel. And you do have a right to defend yourself.

However, some things you do not have a right to do. This includes the continued settlement activity which is illegal by international law (and if I'm not mistaken by Israeli law as well), and is one of the things that is severely hurting you in international relations. And there's no way this can be contrived as being self defense.

The removal of settlements from the Gaza strip was a good move and gained Israel a fair bit of respect here (and I would assume elsewhere as well), but sadly this has been squandered completely by the continued expension of the settlements in the west bank. It would be one thing if it could just be written off as fundamentalists doing their thing, reclaiming the holy land and all, but given your government's inaction in the face of the continued expansions, it is obvious that they are at least unofficially sanctioned by the state. And besides being illegal, that's another major international snafu that loses you major goodwill around the world.

Basically, it tells the world that Israel is not prepared to compromise, is not prepared to hold themselves to the same standards the want to hold others. Are palestinians allowed to build armed and walled enclaves in Israel? I thought not. And that's why your government needs to grow up and start showing that they're responsible people. They need to realize that when your claim to fame is being the only democracy in the area, the only place where rule of law is universally applied, you damn well have to actually live up to that. You can't ignore major transgressions to please the religious fanatics. If you expect the palestinians to police their own, then apply the same to yourself. Do that, and I expect Israel will find the international community far more accomodating - Well, within limits anyway, I wouldn't hold out for Iran

[Snail]

I've become a father of 2 daughters in the past 2 years, one 2 years old, one 4 months. Children are so malleable and eager to copy the grown-ups, it's amazing. My wife was used to calling me by my first name around the house, but she finally switched to calling me "Abba" (Dad in Hebrew) when my 2-year old called out for me one day, "Michael?" Craziest thing... Anyway, my point is that being a parent teaches you so much about the trusting nature of children, that seeing people abuse that trust intentionally boils the blood.

Anyway, I've said enough, probably most of it rambling, but it's 4am and I gotta go feed the 4-month old. She tends to give these ear-piercing, "Mariah Carey" screams (as my wife calls them) instead of merely crying when she's unhappy, but her smiles make up for it a thousand times.

Awww...

[Black Wolf]

Personally, I'm getting sick to death of Israel being a mob of pricks and getting away with it. Just in the last few years they've invaded Lebanon, attacked in Gaza with illegal weapons, blockaded Gaza causing massive poverty and economic hardship, used Australian and other international passports to commit international murder and now killed 10 people in international waters. North Korea han't killed anywhere near as many people as the Israelis in the last decade, and yet they have huge sanctions while Israel gets treated as a civilized, responsible member of the international community. And they're not, not by a long shot.

[Kosh]

Out of curiosity, have any of you actually seen the film "Occupation 101"? Definately worth watching.

[esarai]

Huh... looked at the linked documents, and a lot if it is straight from the horse's mouth--The IDF.  Other linked sources appear to be fallacious extrapolations intended for political purposes.  In short, this evidence is (to me) unacceptable.

Personally, it looks like some of those videos are staged--the 'preparing for attack' video shows waves at the point where hostilities begin, when in all other footage of the skirmish show the surrounds of the ship to be pitch black.  I also question the 'stun grenade' that was thrown at the IDF soldiers.  If I recall correctly, the stun grenade (aka flashbang) is supposed to be insanely loud and insanely bright.  The camera had a direct view of the device, but was not blinded.  I'm not an expert, but let me just say, I'm not convinced.

Can someone shed light on what kind of firefighting equipment civilian ships are equipped with?  It doesn't make sense to see activists using what look like garden hoses when they might have something much more powerful at their disposal.

I'm willing to accept new evidence and am not in particular favor of any one side, but currently I am more suspicious of Israel due to it's refusal to allow an international investigation, it's seizure of all communications and media equipment during the raid, and reported abuse of prisoners after the raid.  It seems as if it has something to hide, and/or something it's trying to find. 

[Scotty]

If I recall correctly, the stun grenade (aka flashbang) is supposed to be insanely loud and insanely bright.  The camera had a direct view of the device, but was not blinded.

That's because the blinding effect is from the rods and cones in your eyes burning out.  A camera has neither, so is not blinded.

[Dilmah G]

Indeed, and the camera will only pick up so much light.

[TESLA]

The whole thing is fubar.

Israel does have a right to defend herself, but not to murder innocent people trying to prevent an illegal blockade.

Today they captured ANOTHER ship. The Irish-owned MV Rachel Corrie. At least this was peaceful and nobody (from what i know so far) was hurt.
Well they took one of our ships, maybe I should take their embassy in Dublin. 

I have also just heard according to couple of news channels (still to be confirmed) that the Turkish PM is to travel on the next aid convoy WITH a Turkish military escort. Interesting.....

[Sandwich]

He may well have. But he's still acting very much the troll, deliberately misinterpreting what I posted and putting a spin on it that has nothing to do with what was actually said. This is what I'm referring to. He could be a general for all I care, he's still making an ass of himself in that post. I suppose that there may be some major feelings involved on his part, but if so then it's time to cool down rather than post as he did.

I don't see where he misinterpreted your post (and there's no way to tell if it was deliberate or not, even if he did, so don't go there). Could you point out exactly what you're referring to? Here's what I see in your latest post exchange with him:

Shade: Israel should have been more careful with what they did, esp. considering the hot water of world opinion they're in.
Splinter: We weren't careful? Boarding a ship attempting to run our blockade with soldiers armed with paintball guns isn't careful enough? And why the double-standards, anyway?

Shade: Israel should grow-up and be responsible.
Splinter: What more could we have done in boarding a ship with hostile "peace activists" that would have been more "responsible"? Ask them nicely to stop, with a side of ice-cream?

See, I don't understand how he twisted your words... unless you were referring to something entirely else earlier on in the thread? You say he was putting words in your mouth, yet he quoted you word-for-word, and responded - albeit with a heavy dose of sarcasm - to your statements.

Am I missing something?

Tell me, what would you have seen Israel do once that flotilla set sail?

The thing is, I think the mistake here wasn't using too much force. The mistake was in using far too little. When you drop a relatively small group onto a ship of potential hostiles, you are pretty much asking them to attack you. Feelings take over, they sense that they can win, and mob mentality kicks in. It's the same situation you'd get if you sent a single police car into a riot-prone area of town to arrest a local - People don't give themselves up, rather, they start throwing rocks.

What you need in a situation like this is a show of force. You need to make it clear from the beginning that you're in control and that you're prepared for whatever is going to happen. You need enough people involved that you can be confident of not getting overrun. Feelings will be hurt, people will be bruised, but chances are good that noone will be killed. Waiting until the ship was not deep in international waters would have been a good move too - Even if it isn't legally required in the case of a blockade, I don't see how hitting it that far out could've been operationally necessary, and doing so is just giving the media an excuse to villify Israel. Again.

You know, I personally actually agree with you there. I whole-heartedly embrace all those platitudes (I don't mean that negatively) of "Never pick a fight you can't win", "Hit back first", etc. The problem is, when faced with a boat-full of "peace activists", the world tends to frown on going in swinging. In retrospect, that would have been justified in this case since those "peace activists" weren't exactly practicing what they preached. But who knew?

So overwhelming force of arms wouldn't have worked. But it seems that you were talking more about overwhelming force of personnel. You're right that that probably would have improved the situation - again, had we expected the "peace activists" to be violent. But we were hoping they weren't going to be violent... crazy to expect "peace activists" to behave peacefully, I know, I know... sorry, the irony of the situation just demands some sarcasm.

So, a multitude of personnel. Logistically, I don't see how that would have been possible (though I'm not an expert). Think about it. You want to get as many people onto a moving boat as rapidly as possible. The boat obviously isn't docked in a harbor, with nice convenient gangways to aid in boarding. So "land" is out - what are the alternatives? Sea and air.

Boarding by sea is quite possible, by loading men onto rubber dinghies, approaching the sides of the ship, tossing up grappling hooks that then get tossed back down, climbing up the rope ladders that aren't there... you see the problem.

So, air. You can't very well parachute loads of people onto a boat with any sort of safety - too many poles, antennae, and other pokey stuff sticking up. Helicopters it is, then. The boat doesn't have a helipad (I presume), so you have to hover over the deck, drop ropes, and let your men rappel down the ropes onto the deck. Now, the Mavi Marmara is apparently 93m / 305ft long. A Black Hawk helicopter, the most likely helicopter used for this sort of thing, has a rotor span of 16.36m / 53.6ft. Now, according to photos, the Mavi Marmara looks to have about 20 meters of deck area appropriate for a helicopter to hover over; the rear deck is covered by that framework of metal poles pointed out in point 2 of that questionable site posted earlier, making it unsuitable for lowering people by rope, and the front has antennae, a sloped area, and the too-narrow prow. Only one helicopter with a rotor span or 16 meters can fit above a clear space of 20 meters.

Thus, the boarding was going to be slow no matter what, one soldier at a time. I guess they could have used more ropes, like you see in the movies... 4 or something, but it's probably an issue of keeping all 4 ropes over areas that are clear enough for the people to land in... not likely to be possible in real life.

Anyway, all that to say that while I agree that an overwhelming amount of personnel all at once would have been much better, I don't see how they could have done it any other way.

However, some things you do not have a right to do. This includes the continued settlement activity which is illegal by international law (and if I'm not mistaken by Israeli law as well), and is one of the things that is severely hurting you in international relations. And there's no way this can be contrived as being self defense.

The removal of settlements from the Gaza strip was a good move and gained Israel a fair bit of respect here (and I would assume elsewhere as well), but sadly this has been squandered completely by the continued expension of the settlements in the west bank. It would be one thing if it could just be written off as fundamentalists doing their thing, reclaiming the holy land and all, but given your government's inaction in the face of the continued expansions, it is obvious that they are at least unofficially sanctioned by the state. And besides being illegal, that's another major international snafu that loses you major goodwill around the world.

Did you miss my link earlier in the thread, about Israel demolishing Jewish houses that were built illegally, during the 10-month settlement freeze? The "government inaction" you claim exists does not.

In any case, what our leaving the Gaza Strip did was show anyone who cared to look what exactly the Palestinians do when they have their freedom: democratically elect an internationally-recognized terrorist organization to government, and commence an unheard-of barrage of rockets on Israeli towns and cities. So until they can get their act together, renounce terrorism, and prove that when they're allowed to govern themselves they don't resort to violence, I don't see how anyone with half a brain could expect Israel to give them the time of day, let alone a more strategically-located position from whence to launch attacks against us.

What's hurting us in international relations is the hypocritical double-standard being applied. Yes, Israel is a democratic, moral, civil country and should be held to the standards of any other such country. If the Palestinians want their own similar country, they need to prove that state terrorism will not be their elected way forward.

Basically, it tells the world that Israel is not prepared to compromise, is not prepared to hold themselves to the same standards the want to hold others. Are palestinians allowed to build armed and walled enclaves in Israel? I thought not. And that's why your government needs to grow up and start showing that they're responsible people. They need to realize that when your claim to fame is being the only democracy in the area, the only place where rule of law is universally applied, you damn well have to actually live up to that. You can't ignore major transgressions to please the religious fanatics. If you expect the palestinians to police their own, then apply the same to yourself. Do that, and I expect Israel will find the international community far more accomodating - Well, within limits anyway, I wouldn't hold out for Iran

Uprooting Jewish families from Jewish towns in the Gaza Strip didn't tell the world that we were prepared to compromise?

Israel polices it's own far better than the Palestinians do, I don't even understand how you can begin to think that we don't... where do all the suicide bombings, all the indiscriminate rockets come from? More importantly, what are their targets? I've said in years past that although abhorrent in general, if their targets were military, I'd understand it. But their targets are civilians who happen to be eating at the wrong cafe, riding the wrong public bus, or sitting in the wrong classroom at the wrong time. When Israel retaliates against rocket fire, it targets those responsible for said rocket fire, and does everything possible to minimize or eliminate innocent civilian deaths - drops leaflets warning civvies away, for example (not that that ever made sense to me - can't terrorists read just as well as civvies?).

Anyway, I'll close with this - perhaps it will get through people's skulls better than video footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

[Snail]

Aww Sandwich don't hate us we love you

[Black Wolf]

Anyway, I'll close with this - perhaps it will get through people's skulls better than video footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

How is that any less questionable than the site that was linked to before? The implications (that everything's peachy in Gaza) are just as dishonest as the previous link.

[Shade]

See, I don't understand how he twisted your words... unless you were referring to something entirely else earlier on in the thread? You say he was putting words in your mouth, yet he quoted you word-for-word, and responded - albeit with a heavy dose of sarcasm - to your statements.

Oh, the quotes were just that, quotes. It's how he interprets them that's the problem. For example:

Careful about public opinion? I suppose boarding a ship with painball guns and after a major violent encounter still offering to send the relief aid is just them sticking it to the man right? Big middle finger to everyone and their opinions we are going in with paintball guns blazing HOOORAH!
...
What's next? Navy seals with wiffle bats? maybe some border police with potato guns? I know the next patrol I go on I will take a twig. I'll try and use it like a whip and say "this is for Shade" now you can't condemn me for being evil murderer... unless of course the twig happens to enter his mouth and choke him then I'm sure someone would find reason to condemn me to death

As far as I can tell, I didn't post anything to that effect. What I said was that the people who planned the boarding operation must have been retarded to **** it up as they did, and then that Israel's policy lately is little more than retaliation and diplomatic mistakes and that as such they needed to act more responsibly, but Splinter went and put a completely different meaning into that.

[Edit] Actually, on re-re-reading my first post, I can see how he might have understood one of the sentences differently than I intended. I was a bit ambiguous in the phrasing. So I guess it may be an honest misunderstanding. At any rate, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

crazy to expect "peace activists" to behave peacefully

I'd expect a bit more paranoia honestly Activists of any kind tend to be borderline fanatic. And chances were good that at least some of those on board were there for the express purpose of making Israel's life a bit harder. I can appreciate that it might be difficult to put people onboard quickly though, but if that were the case, you could find a way of keeping the activists off the deck while you were boarding. Or if no options seemed viable, one could even blockade the port itself so the ships had no choice but to turn around, as seagoing vessels can't just pull up on a beach to unload. Either way, what was eventually done was pretty much the worst option available, and that speaks poorly indeed for the people who planned it.

Did you miss my link earlier in the thread, about Israel demolishing Jewish houses that were built illegally, during the 10-month settlement freeze? The "government inaction" you claim exists does not.

Didn't miss it, but it doesn't really change the fact that expansion of settlements continues to this day, with unspoken government assent. And '10-month settlement freeze' really says it all. What about the rest of the time? It should be a permanent and thoroughly enforced settlement freeze, with a gradual winding-down of those settlements already built, and then Israel will be a much better position to call Hamas out for the hypocrites that they are.

What's hurting us in international relations is the hypocritical double-standard being applied. Yes, Israel is a democratic, moral, civil country and should be held to the standards of any other such country. If the Palestinians want their own similar country, they need to prove that state terrorism will not be their elected way forward.

That's certainly true. They do need to clean up their game. But Israel is not exactly making it easy for them. They're being kept in a state of perpetual poverty and starvation as the blockade allows far less supplies to pass than is actually needed for any kind of decent life. And under those circumstances, expecting them to clean up their game is rather optimistic. Israel is making much the same mistake that the US did with post-war Iraq and in Afghanistan, albeit on a smaller scale - You're making people's life miserable instead of improving it, and at the same time expecting them to stand up to the only group that seems to be trying to help them... in this case, Hamas.

Uprooting Jewish families from Jewish towns in the Gaza Strip didn't tell the world that we were prepared to compromise?

This:

The removal of settlements from the Gaza strip was a good move and gained Israel a fair bit of respect here (and I would assume elsewhere as well), but sadly this has been squandered completely by the continued expension of the settlements in the west bank.

Demolishing the Gaza settlements was probably the biggest diplomatic score Israel has made in recent times. You got respect for that. Our politicians were all swooning and ready to support you (only morally, of course. They're politicians) against Hamas. But then comes a series of Big Mistakes that basically nullifies everything you gained from it, culminating in the recent events where Netanyahu basically gave the world the finger in regards to the West Bank settlements, not to mention the idiocy of that Dubai assasination that, while not conclusively proven as a Mossad operation, sure as hell stinks of it.

[Snail]

[iamzack]

Sandwich makes it sound liek most of the violence is directed at Israelis, but it probably isn't. Wikipedia has casualty numbers all the way back to 1987. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Casualties

These include civilian-on-civilian violence (like, for example, when Israeli settlers react to IDF removal of their illegal settlements by destroying nearby Palestinian towns).

I do have to wonder if those numbers include when the IDF reacts to nonviolent protests by shooting tear gas canisters directly into people's faces/chests at close range. I doubt it, since some of the victims of that nonsense were Americans or otherwise foreign.

Also, Sandiwch said something about IDF bulldozing illegal housing, and some of it happens to be Palestinian? As far as I'm aware, there's really aren't Palestinians building houses in Israeli-controlled areas, just Israelis building homes in Palestine in order to steal the land. But then again, all of Palestine apparently belongs to Israel. If I was Palestinian, I'd be launching rockets too. Israel has them all caged up like pet dogs and then goes on about how it's soooo good to them by feeding them, when the reason they need feeding in the first place is that Israel is keeping them from fishing, growing crops, etc.

[Titan]

That was in our textbooks too. Cemented the idea in my head that Israel has no right to exist. Gays were killed in the Holocaust too, but you don't see us demanding our very own country.

... so many questions...

[esarai]

That's because the blinding effect is from the rods and cones in your eyes burning out.  A camera has neither, so is not blinded.

Yet the color capture devices inside cameras are still sensitive to visible light and from my own experience can be overloaded by intense bursts if the exposure has not been set to deal with it.  Perhaps the exposure was already set low to compensate for the deck lights, and such the grenade was not able to blind the camera. 

I still however do not trust the video as it was released from the IDF and not an independent source.