Author Topic: Religion, belief - What you believe and why  (Read 13007 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
Try to find the words "immortal soul" next to each other in the Bible.

*Hint. You can't.

The doctrine of the immortal soul was created long after the Bible was written.

This is irrevelant to the fact that I cannot name a single Christian doctrine that does not believe in the concept.

In fact, I'm pretty sure it's incorporated into Jewish tradition as well, so...
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
Well there is the alternative interpretation that involves the dead literally rising and given new bodies when Apocalypse comes Satan dies (like God planned) and the world is re-made into a new one... or something.

Technically I would find this interpretation much more believable than immortal souls continuing their existence in some other "plane of existence" that would arbitrarily be named heaven or paradise, but on the other hand it's also a lot more disturbing.

Which might be why the immortal soul aspect has overtaken the other interpretation in popularity.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I dunno the immortal soul thing to me sounds a lot less freaky. I don't understand how the resurrection idea would work, but the idea of a consciousness that is not bound to a physical existence makes more sense to me.

  

Offline iamzack

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
So you dont believe in the immortal soul because the bible doesn't specifically say that the immortal soul exists. However you don't believe in hell, even though the bible talks about hell a lot, including that Jesus went there.
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Offline Turambar

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I dunno the immortal soul thing to me sounds a lot less freaky. I don't understand how the resurrection idea would work, but the idea of a consciousness that is not bound to a physical existence makes more sense to me.

the idea of consciousness without a framework for supporting it makes no sense to me.
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Offline iamzack

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I dunno the immortal soul thing to me sounds a lot less freaky. I don't understand how the resurrection idea would work, but the idea of a consciousness that is not bound to a physical existence makes more sense to me.

the idea of consciousness without a framework for supporting it makes no sense to me.

It makes people feel special, to not be made entirely out of the material world.
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Offline Retsof

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
However you don't believe in hell, even though the bible talks about hell a lot, including that Jesus went there.
  The phrase often translated as "Hell" can refer to oblivion, non-exestence.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I dunno the immortal soul thing to me sounds a lot less freaky. I don't understand how the resurrection idea would work, but the idea of a consciousness that is not bound to a physical existence makes more sense to me.

the idea of consciousness without a framework for supporting it makes no sense to me.
How so?  We know hyperintelligent shades of the color blue can exist. :p

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I dunno the immortal soul thing to me sounds a lot less freaky. I don't understand how the resurrection idea would work, but the idea of a consciousness that is not bound to a physical existence makes more sense to me.
the idea of consciousness without a framework for supporting it makes no sense to me.
The idea of an immortal soul that detaches itself from the body and continuing to exist elsewhere makes more sense to me than all the corpses in the world being resurrected and turning into zombies at judgment day. :wtf:

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I dunno the immortal soul thing to me sounds a lot less freaky. I don't understand how the resurrection idea would work, but the idea of a consciousness that is not bound to a physical existence makes more sense to me.
the idea of consciousness without a framework for supporting it makes no sense to me.
The idea of an immortal soul that detaches itself from the body and continuing to exist elsewhere makes more sense to me than all the corpses in the world being resurrected and turning into zombies at judgment day. :wtf:

those things both make about the same amount of sense as a fat man that dresses in red driving a team of flying reindeer, giving presents to everyone on christmas night.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
those things both make about the same amount of sense as a fat man that dresses in red driving a team of flying reindeer, giving presents to everyone on christmas night.
You're wrong there. He only gives presents to nice people.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
The idea of an immortal soul that detaches itself from the body and continuing to exist elsewhere makes more sense to me than all the corpses in the world being resurrected and turning into zombies at judgment day. :wtf:

Not to materialist point of view. Make a distinction between "sounds more pleasant" and "makes more sense".

The reason why the literal resurrection interpretation has lost its popularity should be obvious. Resurrecting 6000 year-old-corpses sounds like an impossibility even to young earth creationists, and nasty as a concept, too.

Technically, though, I would imagine the logistics would be that the state of consciousness of people would be "backed up" at the moment of death, then when appropriate it would be inserted into a new body. To me, that makes more sense than an immortal soul with no material framework, like Turambar said.

Not that I entertain any particular notions of likelyhood for this event either, but for an assumed superpowerful being, I could see it as "doable" on a (sufficiently advanced) technical level.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I guess you're right. The immortal soul sounds more poetic to me than ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
I guess you're right. The immortal soul sounds more poetic to me than ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.

Technically, with manufactured bodies (which, if I recall my sources right, would need no nourishments and would "live" forever) it would be ZOMBIE ROBOT JUDGEMENT DAY APOCALYPSE which to me sounds a lot more AWESOME (if not as poetic) than immortal souls...
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Offline Topgun

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why

Technically, though, I would imagine the logistics would be that the state of consciousness of people would be "backed up" at the moment of death, then when appropriate it would be inserted into a new body. To me, that makes more sense than an immortal soul with no material framework, like Turambar said.

That is exactly what I believe.

As for hell, it takes a little longer to explain, but ill go ahead and do it little by little.

First, their are several words and phrases that are often translated to hell, each with a different meaning.
There is the Hebrew word Gehenna, the Hebrew word She'ohl or Sheol, the Greek word Hades, the Greek phrase translated to "lake of fire", and the Greek phrase that translates to "second death".

Gehenna was a real, physical place just outside of Jerusalem, it was were they burned the bodies of people not deemed worthy of a burial, IE criminals. Sheol is often translated as "the pit" or "the grave", and refers to the burial grounds.

I believe that all these terms are used symbolically, not literally.
For example, Rev. 20:13,14 says
Quote
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

If Hades was a real place, how could it be thrown into the lake of fire? Also, if you consider Hades to be a literal place, then the sea and death must also be literal, and that doesn't make any sense.
Also notice that the lake of fire is not Hades but an entirely deferent entity.

Not only that, but how would have the first Christians understood it? They, like I mentioned earlier, did not believe in a soul that lives on after death, so the idea of hell being a place where those souls go wouldn't enter their mind when reading revelation.

Again, I could keep going, but I don't have the time at the moment, perhaps I will continue in a later post.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
Try to find the words "immortal soul" next to each other in the Bible.

*Hint. You can't.

The doctrine of the immortal soul was created long after the Bible was written.
This is irrevelant to the fact that I cannot name a single Christian doctrine that does not believe in the concept.

What about the first Christians? The ones around the time the Bible was written? Like I said, even the Catholic Church acknowledges that the doctrine of the immortal soul was incorporated into Christendom long after the Bible was written.

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
The bible was also written/compiled/edited a good while after the first Christians died.
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Offline Topgun

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
The bible was also written/compiled/edited a good while after the first Christians died.

No, actually, it wasn't.

Archaeologists have found various compilations of the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Scriptures, notably the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament used by early Christians. There is no evidence of any tampering or additions aside from, arguably, John 8:1-11 which is missing from the older Greek versions, and a few other verses of little consequence, like Mathew 17:21.

Quote from: wikipedia
Like other literature from antiquity, the text of the New Testament was (prior to the advent of the printing press) preserved and transmitted in manuscripts. Manuscripts containing at least a part of the New Testament number in the thousands. The earliest of these (like manuscripts containing other literature) are often very fragmentarily preserved. Some of these fragments have even been thought to date as early as the second century
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 06:40:28 pm by Topgun »

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
Second century isn't a while after jesus?
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Offline Topgun

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Re: Religion, belief - What you believe and why
Second century isn't a while after jesus?

Jesus died in the 30's of the first century, the Apostle John died in the 70's, thats pretty close for me.
Anyway, I am not going to argue with you, believe what you want.