Poll

Was it worth it to invent nukes and bomb Japan to finish WWII?

Yes, nukes finished the war quickly and is a good deterrent.
21 (26.6%)
Yes it was worth it to end the war quickly even if they turned into a problem later on.
16 (20.3%)
Who knows?
15 (19%)
No, bombing Japan caused more death than was needed.
13 (16.5%)
No, nukes will be the death of us and the planet.
12 (15.2%)
Nuke should be allowed to edit peoples polls at will
2 (2.5%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Voting closed: July 17, 2010, 09:18:16 pm

Author Topic: Nuclear Weapons  (Read 13941 times)

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Offline iamzack

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I voted for everything!

I am Florida!
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Offline Redstreblo

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I voted for everything!

I am Florida!

well, if you voted for everything I guess that's the same as voting for nothing... so that's ok.

Please lets try to change gendiscs habbit of going crazy in serious topics and causing lockage. Please???  :P
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Offline General Battuta

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I am Florida too!

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
so... nukes aren't the cause for our doom, instead they are the key to our survival?  


Yes. Asteroids are big rocks and changing its course takes a lot of power, something a nuke can provide.
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Offline Retsof

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As well as the whole "sail + explosion = thrust" thing for possible future spacecraft.
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I can't help but hear a shotgun cocking with this.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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If they only needed to detonate a nuclear bomb, and not kill anyone, why didn't they just invite Hirohito to some uninhabited island and drop a bomb there?

Do you honestly think he would have gone? Or that he would have believed it?
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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As well as the whole "sail + explosion = thrust" thing for possible future spacecraft.

except there are no shockwaves in space.  that is a science-fiction idea.  same principle for asteriods too.  you can't deflect one, you'd have to destroy it.  and then you have thousands of very large asteroids rather than one unbelievably large one.
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Offline General Battuta

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As well as the whole "sail + explosion = thrust" thing for possible future spacecraft.

except there are no shockwaves in space.  that is a science-fiction idea.  same principle for asteriods too.  you can't deflect one, you'd have to destroy it.  and then you have thousands of very large asteroids rather than one unbelievably large one.

Not quite true. You can use nuclear weapons to deflect asteroids by blowing them up in close proximity - energy will be imparted. And you can use a 'sail', i.e. a giant plate, as propulsion by detonating nuclear bombs beneath it (see the Orion spacecraft design.)

 

Offline iamzack

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Please lets try to change gendiscs habbit of going crazy in serious topics and causing lockage. Please???  :P

No one is serious in Gendisc unless they are enraged. Shoulda tried trolling.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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i just read the 4th of july thread and this one makes a lot more sense now.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Am I the only one who's going to point out that Fat Man and Little Boy were primitive atom bombs and totally different than any multi-stage nuclear weapon deployed today?

First though, this poll is idiotic (and I'm not just referring to the misspelling of deterrent, even though it's annoying me).  Fission-based weaponry was in development long before the decision to use it on Japan, and the research was in place well before the Second World War even began.  The war accelerated the process by virtue of the Manhattan project (and the simultaneous studies going on in the USSR and Germany), but fission-based weaponry was inevitable, and the development of modern thermonuclear weapons was a logical next step.  The technology itself is neither good nor bad; it just is.  The uses to which it have been put have a moral component, but considering the massive leaps in technological development the nuclear arms race of the Cold War catalyzed, I would argue it's had nothing but a positive influence.

Second, the use of the primitive atomic devices on Japan has arguably been the reason they have not been used on a population since - frankly, the results were so horrific that every leader since has been unwilling to bear the cost (especially considering the development of the MAD doctrine in the Cold War).

Third, Japan was warned - twice - about the imminent deployment of both weapons and given the option to surrender.  The leadership refused.  The estimated cost in Allied lives to invade Japan was 1 million+ soldiers.  This does not take into account the casualties that would have resulted had the Russians also invaded, a plan for which was in the works.  Think of what happened in Germany post-1945 and consider the effect if the same had occurred in Japan.  It's very well and noble to think that the mass bombing of civilians is never justified, but the fact of the matter is that World War 2 was the largest total war before or since and it's conclusion was the priority on all sides - all options are on the table.  Those of us who have never lived through a state of total war find it difficult to grasp the concept, but the entire economy and society of the largest nations on Earth was dedicated to nothing but the war effort.  That's an enormous psychological shift from the world we live in today; one that most people can't make without a serious understanding of the historical context (something high school history fails to teach entirely).

Lastly, nobody knew what the effects of prolonged exposure to nuclear radiation were.  Even the Manhattan project scientists who worked with it (there's an interesting story about how they nearly caused a fission reaction in the middle of New York) had little idea of what kind of power they were actually working with.  When Truman ordered the deployment, nobody knew what a long impact it would have on Japan.

The atrocities committed by Japan (and they were many, brutal, and unforgivable) don't even factor into the equation.  With the information at hand in 1945, the use of the atom bombs was fully justified and necessary - and it has probably saved countless more lives since.  Imagine the carnage if a modern thermonuclear weapon was ever deployed on a civilian population.

That said, nuclear technology was inevitable.  The war simply accelerated it by a decade at absolute most.

As an aside, reading some of the responses in this thread makes me think that the quality of history instruction is severely lacking in a lot of places.  There are some very odd, simplistic, and in some cases downright looney interpretations of actual events and "what-ifs" going on here.  Anyone who thinks we live under constant threat of global nuclear annihilation hasn't looked honestly at the geopolitical state of the world in the last 10 years.  We're at the lowest likelihood of nuclear war since the Soviets tested their first device in 1949.

You want to have a discussion about the place of nuclear technology in 20th century history, then by all means I'm game (I don't think Battuta has called me a 'threadwinner' in several months now, I'm losing my touch  :p).  Facile one-line poll questions that don't even begin to capture the complexities involved are pointless.

Oh yeah, and while I'm at it, Iraq was never accused of having nuclear weapons, it was accused of having "weapons of mass destruction."  This includes all CBRNE threats (chemical, biological, radioactive, nuclear, environmental), though Iraq was known to have previously deployed chemical weapons.  Not saying the WMD possession accusation was justification for invasion, just that nuclear weapons were not a necessary component of the purported WMD hunt.  Iraq and Afghanistan are also very small-scale conflicts compared to the general history of modern warfare.  The number of troops currently in Iraq and Afghanistan combined don't even come close to the number of troops stationed in West Germany immediately following the cessation of hostilities in WW2, nevermind the actual numbers of combat troops involved in the invasion of Germany itself.  22 million civilians died in the Soviet Union alone between 1941 and 1945, as opposed to 100,000 (maybe) in Iraq from 2003 to 2010.  Much as the loss of any life is tragic, the fact of the matter is that Iraq and Afghanistan are minor conflict in terms of strictly numbers, and totally irrelevant to any discussion concerning nuclear weaponry.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 12:08:50 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Bobboau

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yeah, more people would die in a single WW2 battle than do in during the entirety of most modern "wars".
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Offline Redstreblo

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...referring to the misspelling of deterrent...

Fixed  :D :yes:
I, Aries one, have proved myself superior to the legendary Terran pilot Alpha one! Let the Vasudan people take pride in this accomplishment, and take the Parliamentary Vasudan Empire to victory over the inferior Galactic Terran Alliance! Long live the Emperor!

 

Offline Dilmah G

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What MP-Ryan said.

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Quote
22 million civilians died in the Soviet Union alone between 1941 and 1945, as opposed to 100,000 (maybe) in Iraq from 2003 to 2010.

Not to side track the discussion, but even larger is the amount that disappeared in peace time. For a reason or the other, I tend to be suspicious of any statistics coming from Soviet Union.

The time surrounding WWI and WWII are unfathomable for me at least. Human kind should really learn from those mistakes, something what I think has not happened.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

  

Offline Scotty

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Well, we've learned that globally encompasing wars are bad, haven't we?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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What MP-Ryan said.

So basically what I said put in a more eloquent but slightly less accessible manner. :p

Not ragging on you Ryan, but you do have a tendancy to bury opposition under text walls rather than be accessible for debate and hence education...
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Offline StarSlayer

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At least they are not as scary as carnies baby, yeah.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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What MP-Ryan said.

So basically what I said put in a more eloquent but slightly less accessible manner. :p

Not ragging on you Ryan, but you do have a tendancy to bury opposition under text walls rather than be accessible for debate and hence education...

if someone is too lazy to read the entirety of his post, they don't need to be debating.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline castor

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The only "good" thing about those bombings was that now everyone knows what that **** is all about. Better it was found out sooner than later, as harsh as it sounds.