[Mobius]

I was tempted to create this thread in NTV, but General FreeSpace Discussion is, without any doubt, the most appropriate place. I'd like to get NTV moving again, but there's something in the planning phase that is stopping me. Please note that this thread is not about ground warfare in FreeSpace, which has been already discussed a while ago: it's about the deployment operations that preceed ground battles.


We know from canon sources that the GTVA deployed some 600.000 ground troops to retake Cygnus Prime. If Argo transports can't carry more than 2.000 people, 300 transports (or better, 300 flights) were necessary to deploy all troops. That's a riskful move in a contested system, even with adequate protection, ad we all know what happened to the Inspiration, the Venture, and several GTVA transports under attack by the Shivans. Is it even possible to rely on vulnerable transports to retake a planet? Wouldn't the planetary defenses cause tremendous losses?

The Argo's capacity is also getting me confused. I don't remember when (or if) I heard that it couldn't carry more than 2.000 people... perhaps it was Command who said it indirectly during the evacuation of Capella?  Oh, and do we have any reliable info regarding the capacity of Elysium transports?

[General Battuta]

An Argo is as well protected against hostile attack as just about any troop transport in the history of warfare.

Troops were moved around by the bushel in hundreds of troop transports, exactly like this, during World War II.

[Mobius]

But in FreeSpace, enemies can sneak from behind and break havoc. Therefore, invasions call for a different approach. The D-Day was successful mostly because the Allies gained air superiority over Normandy, and the Luftwaffe couldn't sink all those warships and troop transports well before they could reach the land. Had Hitler decided to deploy aircraft, the Allied retreat from Dunkerque would have been a carnage. No threats from the air = more chances of success.

I'd say that ground troops are deployed progressively (massive formations of transports are too vulnerable to strikes), but I still don't know how many transports are needed to deliver all those soldiers.

[Dilmah G]

Had Hitler decided to deploy aircraft, the Allied retreat from Dunkerque would have been a carnage. No threats from the air = more chances of success.

Wait. What.

Didn't you hear about the Stukas dive bombing those poor blokes on the beach? The story about that soldier whose mates shielded him with their bodies because he was wounded? The stukas attempting to assault the ships? The complaints by soldiers on the ground about the lack of RAF fighter cover?

As for the Elysium, how many people were on that boarding team in hallfight? Perhaps that number plus 10 for capacity?

And those troops probably didn't all get there in one night, they may have landed a few thousand to establish an LZ, and then brought them in in intervals of several wings of transports each. No doubt the GTVA would have been mounting diversionary assaults on other strategic points in system to keep the pressure off.

[Snail]

As for the Elysium, how many people were on that boarding team in hallfight? Perhaps that number plus 10 for capacity?

Err, I think you're severely underestimating the size of the Elysium. It's over 130 feet high...



Also, Mobius, Cygnus Prime wasn't 100% under the control of the NTF. I doubt they would have had enough time to set up more than a rudimentary defense of the planet, and only at certain strategic targets.

[Dilmah G]

Oh, well fair enough then.

[Mobius]

Wait. What.

Didn't you hear about the Stukas dive bombing those poor blokes on the beach? The story about that soldier whose mates shielded him with their bodies because he was wounded? The stukas attempting to assault the ships? The complaints by soldiers on the ground about the lack of RAF fighter cover?

Eh, I thought I added "en masse" after "aircraft"...

Considering its dimensions, the Elysium should carry more than 20 soldiers. Perhaps what we saw in Hallfight was just a special team.

Also, Mobius, Cygnus Prime wasn't 100% under the control of the NTF. I doubt they would have had enough time to set up more than a rudimentary defense of the planet, and only at certain strategic targets.

Sure, but keep in mind that the NTF conquered the planet and forced countless Vasudans to escape using transports. I intend to show the NTF's invasion first and the GTVA's counterattack then, and both of them must look plausible. That's why I'm asking for help.  

[General Battuta]

But in FreeSpace, enemies can sneak from behind and break havoc. Therefore, invasions call for a different approach. The D-Day was successful mostly because the Allies gained air superiority over Normandy, and the Luftwaffe couldn't sink all those warships and troop transports well before they could reach the land. Had Hitler decided to deploy aircraft, the Allied retreat from Dunkerque would have been a carnage. No threats from the air = more chances of success.

Absolutely wrong. In World War II German submarines attacked Allied troop transports all across the Atlantic theater - 'sneaking behind the lines' exactly as you describe. Why would you assume this is about D-Day?

In modern day war games and invasion plans, troop transports not very different from those brave attack by Soviet bombers and cruise missiles, relying on escorts to keep them safe.

It's no different from FreeSpace.

And your remark about Hitler at Dunkerque is particularly idiotic given that there was plenty of German air attacking Dunkerque.

As far as I'm concerned you've got your answer and the thread is over.

[Dilmah G]

What? No, Battuta, air superiority was actually a key contributing factor to the success, as with most invasions. Does the word "Sealion" bring anything to mind? He did say all transports, and well, he was right, they didn't all get splashed before Normandy.

But agreed on the rest.

[Snail]

Sure, but keep in mind that the NTF conquered the planet and forced countless Vasudans to escape using transports. I intend to show the NTF's invasion first and the GTVA's counterattack then, and both of them must look plausible. That's why I'm asking for help.  

I wouldn't say the NTF conquered the planet so much as were landing on it and beginning to burn and smash things. Judging from the Briefing texts, the situation developed over a period of a few days, not exactly what I would call sufficient time to completely conquer an entire planet.

[General Battuta]

What? No, Battuta, air superiority was actually a key contributing factor to the success, as with most invasions.

Air superiority was key to stopping German submarine raids in the Atlantic, but the Germans didn't use aircraft to carry out most of those raids.

So I don't really know what you're trying to say here.

[Dilmah G]

I think we're talking about two different things here. I was talking about the success of the landing.

[General Battuta]

Landing on a planet in FreeSpace would be relatively trivial compared to D-Day. Once you control the orbitals, you control the world.

If anything so much as points a sensor in the direction of your landing force, drop a rock on it.

[Mobius]

Absolutely wrong. In World War II German submarines attacked Allied troop transports all across the Atlantic theater - 'sneaking behind the lines' exactly as you describe. Why would you assume this is about D-Day?

In modern day war games and invasion plans, troop transports not very different from those brave attack by Soviet bombers and cruise missiles, relying on escorts to keep them safe.

It's no different from FreeSpace.

And your remark about Hitler at Dunkerque is particularly idiotic given that there was plenty of German air attacking Dunkerque.

As far as I'm concerned you've got your answer and the thread is over.

What? No, Battuta, air superiority was actually a key contributing factor to the success, as with most invasions.

Air superiority was key to stopping German submarine raids in the Atlantic, but the Germans didn't use aircraft to carry out most of those raids.

So I don't really know what you're trying to say here.

It's a matter of proportions. Operation Sealion was continuously delayed because, without air superiority, it may have turned into a massacre (both the Royal Navy and the RAF were ready to sink the German invasion force). Operation Overlord turned out into a success thanks to air superiority. I remember a quote from one of the highly ranked members of the military who helped planning the invasion: he told his troops that they would have seen only Allied airplanes flying above them (ergo, air superiority was guaranteed). I don't remember his name, though.

No generals were mad enough to condemn their troops to death in hopeless invasions.

I may add that German ships attacked Allied ships across the Pacific, but that's not the point. Those were sporadic episodes and I don't recall any massive attacks on immense Allied shipping. As for Dunkerque, excluding those air attacks I'd say that Hitler let the Allied troops go to Britain. He didn't deploy his best tank units to take care of those troops and that is widely considered a horrible mistake. Back on topic, it is different from FreeSpace because subspace drives give notable advances: just pick up their EM signals on sensors and jump right behind them to break havoc.

At least I learned that the deployment of troop transports must be quick and progressive in order to be safe.


The thread's not over, I still don't know what people think about the cargo capacity of Argo and Elysium transports. Their table entries are vague:

The GTT Argo has become the standard military transport vehicle for the Terran fleet. Argos sometimes carry new weapon and combat craft prototypes to and from testing grounds or to front-line deployment positions. Military VIPs occasionally commandeer Argos to travel from star system to star system in some semblance of comfort. Argos are most often used as assault transports, carrying squads of Marines through heavy flak to board enemy vessels that Command has decided to capture rather than destroy.

Since the start of space colonization, this standard transport has been used by everyone, both civilian and military. While it has undergone minor changes time and again, it remains a simple design: A vehicle meant to transport personnel from one place to another.

The GTT Elysium class of transports has been in service for over 40 years. Its mission hasn't changed from the time of the Great War - to transport civilian and military personnel from one star system to another. The Elysium is very poorly armed, with a single Subach HL-7 cannon, and also suffers from thin armor plating. Only desperate circumstances find Elysiums anywhere near the front lines. Assaults and dangerous transport missions handled almost exclusively by the much tougher GTT Argo class.

[headdie]

there are a few things to take into account

1. How large is the inhabited area of Cygnus prime
2. What is the population of Cygnus prime
3. What is the number expected of hostile combatants

this determines the size of the force you need to deploy on the ground.  For example I would say 600,000 is to small a number to assault a planet like Earth in a tech even fight.  But if the populated area is about the size of the North American continent then its about right.

4. What anti orbital/atmospheric assets does the enemy have
5. What suppressing capability does the invader have

This determines the excess forces you need to deploy that will be killed before delivery (Operation Overlord had a number far in excess of the number killed)

Also consider that it wont just be the transports descending from orbit, there will be fighters and bombers dropping and climbing as well performing escort for the transports and performing tactical strikes.

another thing is we dont know if the GTVA or others use specialised first wave landing craft to make the initial assault using specialised shield layouts, high manoeuvrability and powerful ECM to improve survivability.

finally all of the above assumes there is no rule in FS that says you cant just jump to 30,000 feet above sea level and land from there

[Snail]

The landing might not have been purely done through transports, larger ships may also have taken part.

[Dilmah G]

Also, generally with infantry, the ratio is generally expected to be 3-1, with the invaders possessing the majority. So I guess you could use that to find roughly the number of men on Cygnus Prime the GalTevs thought they had. Perhaps poor intelligence contributed to the losses?

[Mobius]

finally all of the above assumes there is no rule in FS that says you cant just jump to 30,000 feet above sea level and land from there

Good point here, that may be the key. Perhaps the transports need to:

1) Prepare themselves for the operation;
2) Muster an escort force;
3) Jump in proximity of the planet, position from which it's possible to execute a more precise jump;
4) Jump right above the planet's surface;

What do you think?

The landing might not have been purely done through transports, larger ships may also have taken part.

As escort ships or actual troop carriers?

Also, generally with infantry, the ratio is generally expected to be 3-1, with the invaders possessing the majority. So I guess you could use that to find roughly the number of men on Cygnus Prime the GalTevs thought they had. Perhaps poor intelligence contributed to the losses?

So, in poor words, Cygnus Prime was an easy prey for NTF ground troops and only a few hundred thousands of them were enough to conquer it? That'd explain the numbers.


Uhm, the briefing of "Surrender, Belisarius!" gives us enough info to give a relatively accurate estimate of Cygnus Prime's size. We know the distance between the Vasudan convoy and the planet, so we may use the angle to find out how big Cygnus Prime was. I'm tempted to do it... 

[General Battuta]

I may add that German ships attacked Allied ships across the Pacific, but that's not the point. Those were sporadic episodes and I don't recall any massive attacks on immense Allied shipping.

Whether or not you 'recall' it, the Battle of the Atlantic happened, and it was extraordinarily intense. The amount of Allied shipping lost was catastrophic.

Back on topic, it is different from FreeSpace because subspace drives give notable advances: just pick up their EM signals on sensors and jump right behind them to break havoc.

That's not particularly different from the way submarines hunt.

[Mobius]

The Battle of the Atlantic is the name given a series of engagements that occurred between 1939 and 1945 - how is that connected to a one-day long invasion? The difference in terms of time span cannot be ignored.

Can we please remain on topic?