Poll

What do you think about the subject?

I wholeheartedly agree. More Terran factions would have ensured a deeper and meaningful plot.
I agree, but only partially. At least one alien species is necessary to consider FreeSpace a true space shooter
I don't agree. I think more Terran opponents, however, may have raised the overall quality of FreeSpace.
I don't agree. Things are fine as they are, and I can't think of any Terran faction which may have replaced the Vasudans and/or the Shivans.
I don't agree. More Alien species would have been a great idea.
Snuffleupagus. Sincerely indifferent to the topic, as I put hostile Terran factions and alien species to the same level.

Author Topic: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?  (Read 8687 times)

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Offline Kie99

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
While I agree with you that fighting human enemies has greater depth to it, I can't agree that it does anything to harm Freespace's plot, because the aliens are so integral to the plot.  Freespace is based around the idea that an interspecies war caused Terrans and Vasudans to learn how to adapt and survive, and built on the mistakes of another race which came before them, and was wiped out by the Shivans.  You couldn't achieve that without having Alien species - The fact the T-V war was interspecies is what differentiates it from all other wars, and you can't substitute humans for races which are several millenia old and keep it in any way similar to the current plot.

In FS2 a human enemy was a realistic prospect, there had been no war for 3 decades when the rebellion began, and there was a solid reason for the NTF to exist, in FS1 with the background of a long interspecies war (central to being able to survive against the Shivans) an intra-species conflict would have been highly out of place - no rebellion in such a situation would gather enough support to survive, because people would be too scared of the other species taking advantage and attacking.  The HoL was reasonable because of the religious alien aspect, but it's not plausible for humans to turn against each other in a war of survival.

In Freespace 2 a human it was well done, but asking if the amount of aliens limited FS1's plot is like asking if the plot of Titanic was limited by the fact it's set on a boat.
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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
I bet 90% of the people in this forums hesitated to pull the trigger in "But hate the Traitor".
Nah, I just slaughtered anything the moment it turned red. :P

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
If you actually can't tell the difference you may have a problem. I understand what you're trying to say, but there's a big difference between action against an innocent and harmless group and action to prevent a hegemonic group from carrying out a genocidal agenda. While everything is subjective it doesn't mean everything is equally valid, especially not in our moral system.

I agree.

Nah, I just slaughtered anything the moment it turned red. :P

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Offline Snail

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
I think Mongoose raises an extremely important point about the Traitors in Avenging Angels, but I'd like to extend that to all the Vasudans and Terrans who died before the armistice. It was all pretty pointless.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
The loss of human lives is always tragic. The death of 10,000 Nazis is tragic...but they're also Nazis. The NTF was a regime not dissimilar to the Nazis, and no matter how thoroughly I understand why people found the Nazi ideology appealing, the fact is that everyone on that ship was a volunteer fighting for an evil cause.

Blanket statements don't give you no credit.

Like every german soldier was a blood-thirsty bigot? Like every one of them said "Hey, this is evil. Let's go do EVIIIIL!"? No.
A) You'll always find some normal people among such tads
b) A lot of time, people think they're doing good.

EDIT: Late to the party, see this was  already adressed. Carry on.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
The loss of human lives is always tragic. The death of 10,000 Nazis is tragic...but they're also Nazis. The NTF was a regime not dissimilar to the Nazis, and no matter how thoroughly I understand why people found the Nazi ideology appealing, the fact is that everyone on that ship was a volunteer fighting for an evil cause.

Blanket statements don't give you no credit.

Like every german soldier was a blood-thirsty bigot? Like every one of them said "Hey, this is evil. Let's go do EVIIIIL!"? No.
A) You'll always find some normal people among such tads
b) A lot of time, people think they're doing good.

EDIT: Late to the party, see this was  already adressed. Carry on.

That's exactly the point I was making.

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
However there were exactly two moments in FS2 that presented me with a moral quandry. Both were in SOC Loop 1. The obvious one from But Hate The Traitor applies. The one that would apparently surprise you is in Rebels And Renegades. I actually found myself quite conflicted in fighting off the Vasudans. At this point all you know is that ETAK is probably a weapon of mass destruction and that Bosch as the head of the NTF's military is a high-value target.  Given that and the basic premise that the NTF needs to be dealt with for the greater good,  the Vasudan assault makes a great deal of sense, and I sincerely did not want to interrupt it regardless of their renegade status because they were doing the right thing. This is perhaps the only mission in the FS canon that unequivocally casts you as the villian.
I felt this as well. In fact, the first few times I played through the campaign, I tried to avoid killing Vasudans as much as possible.

These were people doing their jobs, and doing what they thought was right, why should I kill them? Especially when we're on the same side.

But when you're there for real, your training just takes over, and most of us would've pulled the trigger regardless.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
However there were exactly two moments in FS2 that presented me with a moral quandry. Both were in SOC Loop 1. The obvious one from But Hate The Traitor applies. The one that would apparently surprise you is in Rebels And Renegades. I actually found myself quite conflicted in fighting off the Vasudans. At this point all you know is that ETAK is probably a weapon of mass destruction and that Bosch as the head of the NTF's military is a high-value target.  Given that and the basic premise that the NTF needs to be dealt with for the greater good,  the Vasudan assault makes a great deal of sense, and I sincerely did not want to interrupt it regardless of their renegade status because they were doing the right thing. This is perhaps the only mission in the FS canon that unequivocally casts you as the villian.
I felt this as well. In fact, the first few times I played through the campaign, I tried to avoid killing Vasudans as much as possible.

These were people doing their jobs, and doing what they thought was right, why should I kill them? Especially when we're on the same side.

But when you're there for real, your training just takes over, and most of us would've pulled the trigger regardless.
I think "Renegade" kind of gives it away. They were specifically ordered not to attack the Iceni but Ahmose went ahead with the attack anyway. The Vasudans under his command knew full well what they were doing, they probably thought a couple of spies or two was a fair tradeoff for destroying the Iceni.

 

Offline Ravenholme

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
However there were exactly two moments in FS2 that presented me with a moral quandry. Both were in SOC Loop 1. The obvious one from But Hate The Traitor applies. The one that would apparently surprise you is in Rebels And Renegades. I actually found myself quite conflicted in fighting off the Vasudans. At this point all you know is that ETAK is probably a weapon of mass destruction and that Bosch as the head of the NTF's military is a high-value target.  Given that and the basic premise that the NTF needs to be dealt with for the greater good,  the Vasudan assault makes a great deal of sense, and I sincerely did not want to interrupt it regardless of their renegade status because they were doing the right thing. This is perhaps the only mission in the FS canon that unequivocally casts you as the villian.
I felt this as well. In fact, the first few times I played through the campaign, I tried to avoid killing Vasudans as much as possible.

These were people doing their jobs, and doing what they thought was right, why should I kill them? Especially when we're on the same side.

But when you're there for real, your training just takes over, and most of us would've pulled the trigger regardless.
I think "Renegade" kind of gives it away. They were specifically ordered not to attack the Iceni but Ahmose went ahead with the attack anyway. The Vasudans under his command knew full well what they were doing, they probably thought a couple of spies or two was a fair tradeoff for destroying the Iceni.

And you know, they weren't wrong, in my opinion. I like Bosch, he was a fairly well written character, but from the information the pilot in FS2 had at that point, I think it was fairly obvious that the Vasudans were doing the right thing. (No Bosch, no problem from the ETAK), yet you were explicitly ordered to act as an NTF pilot, and to maintain your cover, you had to destroy the "Renegade" vasudans.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
I think "Renegade" kind of gives it away. They were specifically ordered not to attack the Iceni but Ahmose went ahead with the attack anyway. The Vasudans under his command knew full well what they were doing, they probably thought a couple of spies or two was a fair tradeoff for destroying the Iceni.

Given that you are a peon in FS2, it's quite probable that Ahmose knows more about what SOC are up to than you do. It's also quite possible that Ahmose was correct in his assessment that SOC were not acting in the best interest of the Vasudans (Given that Bosch for some reason believes the GTVA have no future with his race).

On of the best things about this mission is that it really does push the morality of the situation into a very grey area. Who is actually the good guy in that battle? We know that Bosch's NTF has done many truly evil things but when you look at why you realise that wasn't his purpose. On the other hand you have the SOC/GTVA doing strange things like allowing Bosch to escape by pulling the blockade in earlier missions. Finally you have Ahmose, who may simply be a vengeful Vasudan out to kill Bosch and not caring what the end result of the SOC's mission is, or maybe he's someone who is correct and killing Bosch was the correct thing to do at that point.

Then you have the pilots flying the Vasudan craft. They're definitely not the bad guys. They're pawns in a game that doesn't make sense too. The situation could have very easily ended up with you flying on the same side as Ahmose and completely convinced it was the right thing to do based on the information you had at that time.

So yes, like NGTM-1R, I had a very hard time pulling the trigger against the Vasudans in that mission.

I bet 90% of the people in this forums hesitated to pull the trigger in "But hate the Traitor".
Nah, I just slaughtered anything the moment it turned red. :P

Are you sure of that? ....but hate the traitor is the one where you're asked by the NTF pilots to kill an unarmed civilian transport in order to preserve your cover.
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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
Seriously? I had already read the text that came up and then blasted that Elysium into vapor before the other pilot even finished the sentence vocally, then killed the Myrmidons when they went hostile. No hesitation, just read what they said and opened fire immediately. :nod:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
Seriously? I had already read the text that came up and then blasted that Elysium into vapor before the other pilot even finished the sentence vocally, then killed the Myrmidons when they went hostile. No hesitation, just read what they said and opened fire immediately. :nod:

Er, so you failed the mission?

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
Yep. :D Had to see the outcome. Would've done it anyway at some point if I hadn't the first time.

 
Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
Ech, yeah, those two missions.
If it wasn't required to survive and proceed with the story, I wouldn't have destroyed the Vasudans. Once I flew around firing at the Zods, but without actually hitting them. "That seems convincing enough, and I don't have to kill anybody! Yes!" Then the Iceni is destroyed and I'm thinking that's a victory for the GTVA! Yay! Nope. Do it again, and this time, kill the Zods, even though you don't want to. I didn't like it.
I don't think I ever killed the Elysium, except once just to see if there was an alternate ending. I didn't even hesitate to leave it. Several times I started shooting the NTF even while they were still green.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
The only reason I didn't destroy that Elysium the first time I played that mission was that I had already heard from other people that I fail it if I do.  The only reason.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
 :wtf:

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
Ech, yeah, those two missions.
If it wasn't required to survive and proceed with the story, I wouldn't have destroyed the Vasudans. Once I flew around firing at the Zods, but without actually hitting them. "That seems convincing enough, and I don't have to kill anybody! Yes!" Then the Iceni is destroyed and I'm thinking that's a victory for the GTVA! Yay! Nope. Do it again, and this time, kill the Zods, even though you don't want to. I didn't like it.
I don't think I ever killed the Elysium, except once just to see if there was an alternate ending. I didn't even hesitate to leave it. Several times I started shooting the NTF even while they were still green.

perhaps someone could do a alternative story line to take that into account
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
The only reason I didn't destroy that Elysium the first time I played that mission was that I had already heard from other people that I fail it if I do.  The only reason.

To be honest, in retail I don't think you actually failed. Or at least don't have to do the mission over.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
You do.  I tried it just to see.

:wtf:

An undercover pilot, given a direct order by his current commander.  Staying undercover is vitally more important if it yields data on a suspected weapon of mass destruction.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Vasudans and Shivans: Responsible for limiting the depth of FreeSpace's plot?
You do.  I tried it just to see.

:wtf:

An undercover pilot, given a direct order by his current commander.  Staying undercover is vitally more important if it yields data on a suspected weapon of mass destruction.

Yeah, I could see it, but on the other hand your mission is arguably already over - Snipes is gone, you have no directives, you've collected the data.