[Vespene]

Just give me the opportunity to shoot Steele in the head.  I don't care if its through the window of a ship or in an FPS shooter addon.

[Mars]

In Soviet Alliance, Steele shoots you in the head.

[Buckshee Rounds]

In Capitalist Federation, kitten brainwash you!

[Androgeos Exeunt]

In Soviet Alliance, Steele headshoots YOU!!

Fixed. Really.

[Luis Dias]

Krugman once said that he wanted a psychohistorian, but couldn't, so he became an economist.

Yeah, I guess he sucks at economics as well, although I sympathize with his liberal leanings.

[WormholeSurfer]

I never finished AoA, so unlike everybody else in the community I didn't have high expectations for this second part, but it's absolutely blown my mind. The story and character development are leagues ahead of anything I've ever seen in this game. I never even thought I'd find myself attached to the characters as if I'd known them forever, exhilarated over the minor victories and crushed when the inevitable defeat came, like if I were reading a good book instead of blowing stuff up in a space sim. The missions add enough new ideas to keep things fresh, and to top it all off the new ship designs and skyboxes are just beautiful.

I identify with the Federation - I deeply respect the way of life, the political stance and the philosophy of the UEF, and I'd gladly trade the "democratic" system we currently have for something like Ubuntu. In addition I don't find much base to support the claim, repeated so often in the game, that both factions are on even moral footing. The Tevs are the aggressors, they're the ones who killed civilians left and right, bombed Luna and resorted to assassination to trick their allies, and their only justification for such savagery is that they feel better suited to handle a third Shivan incursion. Considering that the Sathanas fleet from the second incursion twenty years ago would be able to destroy the modern GTVA by itself, I'm rather skeptical about that claim.

I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign - In Delenda Est, but I think there's something wrong with that one. When playing the mission from the start I always have time to decimate the Carthage CAG before engaging the beams, if I use the checkpoint the delay disappears and I have to take care of both at once, which is rather beyond my skill.

I called the bluff in mission 5 - I completely misunderstood that one though, I thought the bluff was that the Gef fellow didn't have the detonation code. It worked anyway and without any blood shedding, so I'm not gonna complain.

I thought Darkest Hour was about right - My wingmen were dropping like flies, but I made it without much trouble. First time I played I had the notion that frigates are superior to corvettes, so I didn't bother disarming the Diomedes and just sat back to watch the fireworks. The Indus did indeed make a beautiful boom.

I killed Xinny and Zero - I don't know why I'm supposed to feel bad about that one. I'm not the Alpha 1 who flew with them, I'm a UEF pilot fighting for survival, and if I were in Laporte's shoes I might have regrets about killing the Tev greenhorns that are placed in a cockpit with little training, but definitely not about bagging some SOC veterans who are likely responsible for more deaths than the entire Wargods, no matter how noble this last mission of theirs might be.

I found the Simms conversation easy - Chose the direct approach, as instructed, and went with what sounded more logical. I'll have to try it again someday, choose flirtatious and see if it's still doable.

I thought the Nyx dogfight was okay - as long as you kept evading as you were told. Whenever I tried engaging one I had his partner tailing me within two seconds, and the damn things pack a punch.

I understood the pointbuy system in Aristeia - awesome mission by the way, and the music really got my blood pumping. Too bad I had to give back the bombers, I wanted to use them to punch holes on the Hood.

I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident - don't think there's more to that than an unlucky communication failure. It was a mistake on the Arethusa's part to jam the Indus's outgoing comms, the Indus was sure to return the favor and if it were necessary to ask for reinforcements the Tevs would likely have more forces available.

I felt good in One Perfect Moment - Beautiful scenery, interesting conversation and decent music, what's there to complain about?

On the assassination, I can't say I was shocked, I saw it coming from a mile away, but I'm amazed at how Steele managed to profit from it. I thought Steele would just kill the Elder to prevent the negotiation from taking place, instead he managed to make the Vasudans feel betrayed and bring them to his cause. Masterful.

I really loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns - the music was amazing throughout the whole campaign. I'm sure I've heard that one song before, can't remember where though. Been nagging at me for a while.

I thought Delenda Est was too hard - did alright until I had to disable the beams, but I have that problem in many missions. I always kill the harmless AAA's instead of the big green lasers.
The mission was a fitting finale for an amazing mod. Like One Perfect Moment, I was pretty sure that it was going to be a failure, but didn't expect such a crushing defeat. Fifteen minutes in, the UEF had killed the Carthage's screen and air wing, everything was looking good and I was thinking we might just pull that one off, and then the Imperieuse (sp?) gatecrashes and tears through the Wargods like they're made of butter.

I love and want to kill Steele - He's a magnificent enemy, intelligent, determined and with no morality qualms, and I want to be the one who brings him down.

[General Battuta]

I thought the 1.1 patch fixed that damn checkpoint issue.  A possible fix is to wait for the Indus to completely decelerate after its warpin at mission start before triggering the checkpoint. Most of the mission's key events are based on distance from the Carthage, so kicking in the checkpoint while the Indus still has momentum from its warpin can throw off the timing.

As for the GTVA's justification, it's entirely based on exigency. The Terran half of the GTVA is already teetering on the edge of sociopolitical collapse - Capella convinced the citizenry (no matter how unjustifiedly) that the Shivans were invincible and unstoppable, and that their wrath was drawn by human aggression and expansionism. Had the alliance never entered the nebula, the popular thinking went, then the Shivans never would have destroyed Capella.

Terra was already a beacon of hope in the FS2 era - witness the Neo-Terran ideology - and it was only the promise of a return home that kept the GTVA in control of its populace. With the gate about to open, psychohistorians predicted a massive emigration from GTVA systems into Sol, followed by the total collapse of the GTVA. Military readiness, in the very concrete, very tangible form of beam-armed destroyer battlegroups, node cordons, and strategic meson deployment, was seen as the only realistic way to stave off a third Shivan incursion, and only the GTVA could provide that readiness.

Ergo, the stability of the GTVA became requisite for human survival, and war against the UEF could provide that stability. The fact that the UEF was a mostly democratic, mostly benevolent government was unfortunate, even horrible, but compared to the need for human survival it was a price that had to be paid. The demands of exigency could not be ignored. The UEF was unable to provide the necessary strength, and compromise or coexistence with it would undermine the GTVA's ability to provide that strength, so the UEF had to go. The GTVA simply could not afford a repeat of the Neo-Terran Front backed by an economic and cultural juggernaut.

One might well argue that even the post-Capella GTVA could not hope to stop all those Sathanas juggernauts, but they would probably reply that at least they had a better chance than the UEF. One might also argue that there's something a little suspicious about an organization making itself the mandatory element of humanity's long-term strategy - but one might also argue that if the Elders were so compassionate and fair-handed, maybe they would have surrendered on day one in order to prevent the following bloodshed.

What's important to the story, ultimately, isn't that players agree with both sides, but that they see how both sides made the argument for their own moral superiority. The UEF stands on principle: attacking a sovereign nation is wrong. The GTVA stands on necessity: attacking a sovereign nation is right if it secures a greater good.

The UEF is deontological, the GTVA utilitarian.

[Destiny]

The Greater Good...Tau...actually I think the GTVA stands up more to 'survival of humans and Vasudans regardless of allegiance, from the Shivans'. Well that's 'good' in a sense, so you're probably right anyway.

I wonder if it's fine to assume the UEF is like a child/teen, compared to the 'adult' GTVA who has experienced what we have, while the UEF had only to contend with some bunch of super-annoying pirates?

But with the GTVA wanting to go back home, it's like now they're NTF...uhh...Neo Terran-Vasudan Front!

[WormholeSurfer]

I suppose the bug is fixed all right in the patch, I think I didn't have it installed. By the way while looking for said patch I found the postprocessing graphics hack, and I don't reckon anyone could tell it's a 10 year game anymore. Seeing the Narayana I thought FS just couldn't look any better, but you keep proving me wrong.

Capella convinced the citizenry (no matter how unjustifiedly) that the Shivans were invincible and unstoppable, and that their wrath was drawn by human aggression and expansionism. Had the alliance never entered the nebula, the popular thinking went, then the Shivans never would have destroyed Capella.

There's not enough information to conclude anything, but from the game lore and the final conversation in WiH I get the impression that they're right on both counts. I think the GTA's deluding themselves if they think they have even a minuscule chance of defeating the Shivans. The second incursion fleet alone would prove more than a match for them, and they don't know the extent of the Shivan reserves, or how their power has grown in the twenty years since they paid us a visit. The only option against them would be to cut off the infected worlds with meson bombs and pray the Shivans still rely on subspace nodes, and if it comes to that the Feds could do it just as well as the GTA.

The other option is to avoid giving the Shivans more reasons to attack. If it's true that they respond to aggressiveness, as it would appear from the ending dialogue and the fact that their incursions happened during the T-V war and the NTF rebellion, starting a civil war doesn't exactly sound like a good idea. Of course, the Tevs don't appear to know that.

I understand that the GTA has good reasons to be fighting this war, as you say if they do nothing it's indeed very likely that mass emigration to Sol will cause the GTA's collapse. Like the Feds, the GTA's fighting for the survival of their sociopolitical system, and I respect that, but I can't see their claims that they are fighting for the whole of mankind's survival as anything else than self-justification. The chance the GTA (or the UEF) has of destroying the Shivan menace militarily is nonexistent, so alternate solutions must be found, and the UEF appears to be better off in that regard. At least they have a slight awareness of what's going on.

but one might also argue that if the Elders were so compassionate and fair-handed, maybe they would have surrendered on day one in order to prevent the following bloodshed.

I'll have to concede that point. In addition, if the hypothesis that the Shivans respond to aggression on the Terrans' part is correct, and the Elders know about it, or at least have a suspicion, the Elders' refusal to surrender doesn't only endanger their own people, but mankind as a whole. In their defense, they are cooking up a secret project that sounds like it might well be worth all the trouble, and surrendering to the GTA after having watched what they are capable of would be like Britain surrendering to Nazi Germany to avoid bloodshed. The Feds have constructed an almost idyllic system, I understand they wouldn't be willing to see it replaced by the less than morally immaculate GTVA.

[crizza]

There was never a way to simply merge the UEF with the GTVA, wasn'tit?

[MatthTheGeek]

If the GTVA had knew about the data the 14th battlegroup brought back before launching the offensive, things might have been different. We'll never know...

[TigerZeta]

I didn't find a better thread to post some of my thoughts, so I'll throw 'em here. Hopefully these haven't been already discussed somewhere else.

I liked both AoA and War in Heaven, although I have to say I like how WiH centered bringing concepts of modern warfare instead of is having a large amount of quasi-religious elements - I mean, no offence intended towards AoA's storyline, I see its merits, it just wasn't my butter. That being said I liked bringing Ubuntu ideology to the foreground and the given reasons behind the war. Highlighting the utter helplessness in war when capital ships are destroyed by FreeSpace's equivalents of artillery/air strikes and lightning warfare. I liked "the abuse" of subspace in the campaign, it gave the universe a lot more credibility. These got me thinking though; why hasn't anyone utilized asteroids and other objects in space to create havoc towards capital ships, installations or settlements? Slapping a set of engines to the back of an asteroid and accelerating the object to high speeds to hit a vulnerable target would seem like an effective way to cause terror in cheap fashion. To bring that concept further, there doesn't seem to be any mention anywhere whether subspace is supposed to affect momentum? From the description subspace is given it does seem to imply a craft/object needs a subspace reactor of its own though - the idea doesn't seem to be opening "a portal of sorts" although in-game visuals indicate it as such. (That would make subspace utilized terror attacks that much cheaper). If the team hasn't already thought of it, I'd love to see these kinds of tactics utilized by some unsavory factions in future projects, both in small and large scale - Larger and smaller asteroids for different targets. A mission where you fight against the time to disable engines at the back of a huge asteroid to save a colony from certain destruction would be neat.

[Destiny]

You should be referred to the BP General Discussion thread.

But firstly: Weapons (at least rockets and missiles) are nuclear-scale. This is why in-game we can blow up any asteroids by just firing a couple or so Tempests into it. The most probably answer I have is game balance. Plus, both factions possesses innately powerful weapons capable of shattering/incinerating any amount of asteroids you throw at them. The GTVA (and the Shivans...) possess the innate beamspam, and having many, many types of asteroid fields to train their fighter pilots in, something that is hard to replicate with a randomizer in a simulator. The UEF possesses plentiful antimatter weapons and rock-shattering railguns. And missilespam.

Conservation of momemtum: Blowing up the engine on an asteroid does not slow it down. Plus you can easily just blow up that asteroid with a BGreen and use TerSlashes to clean up the remaining, while the UEF can just get three or so Karunas.

[General Battuta]

I didn't find a better thread to post some of my thoughts, so I'll throw 'em here. Hopefully these haven't been already discussed somewhere else.

I liked both AoA and War in Heaven, although I have to say I like how WiH centered bringing concepts of modern warfare instead of is having a large amount of quasi-religious elements - I mean, no offence intended towards AoA's storyline, I see its merits, it just wasn't my butter. That being said I liked bringing Ubuntu ideology to the foreground and the given reasons behind the war. Highlighting the utter helplessness in war when capital ships are destroyed by FreeSpace's equivalents of artillery/air strikes and lightning warfare. I liked "the abuse" of subspace in the campaign, it gave the universe a lot more credibility. These got me thinking though; why hasn't anyone utilized asteroids and other objects in space to create havoc towards capital ships, installations or settlements? Slapping a set of engines to the back of an asteroid and accelerating the object to high speeds to hit a vulnerable target would seem like an effective way to cause terror in cheap fashion. To bring that concept further, there doesn't seem to be any mention anywhere whether subspace is supposed to affect momentum? From the description subspace is given it does seem to imply a craft/object needs a subspace reactor of its own though - the idea doesn't seem to be opening "a portal of sorts" although in-game visuals indicate it as such. (That would make subspace utilized terror attacks that much cheaper). If the team hasn't already thought of it, I'd love to see these kinds of tactics utilized by some unsavory factions in future projects, both in small and large scale - Larger and smaller asteroids for different targets. A mission where you fight against the time to disable engines at the back of a huge asteroid to save a colony from certain destruction would be neat.

I don't want to discuss specifics, but at points in the future you will be a happy man.

Sublight asteroid attacks don't work well though because the asteroid can be spotted so far in advance. Even the RKV concept relies on no superluminal sensors.

[Ravenholme]

TigerZeta: All that made me think of is the Headshot asteroid from Homeworld 1.

[TigerZeta]

Without derailing the thread further, and thanks for the replies - Yes, I did consider the preservation of momentum. There may be other reasons for taking out engines out, though. And yes, considering certain missions in the original FS2 campaign it is obvious that the weaponry is quite powerful enough to  thwart at least most "medium"-sized ones. However, are all outposts and installations armed? Interference, velocity etc. etc. might be a factor. I'm not saying that I disagree with you though at all! I did in fact play the Homeworld campaign, but didn't actually remember that mission, heh. Not trying to start an argument to derail further so I'll just shut up

[Buckshee Rounds]

TigerZeta: All that made me think of is the Headshot asteroid from Homeworld 1.

Scariest thing ever, especially when your ten years old.

[PsychoLandlord]

Scariest thing ever, especially when your ten years old.

Seconded. Screw the beast, that goddamn rock REALLY put me on edge.

[Ypoknons]

There was never a way to simply merge the UEF with the GTVA, wasn'tit?

Earth Special Administrative Region, "ESAR." All addresses should be made to "Hong Kong, HKSAR, China, Earth, ESAR, GTVA"

[crazy_dave]

I've been meaning to write something on WiH since I finished it recently and this census thread about WiH seems like a good place to do it (especially since it has a spoilers tag in the title and the WiH Discussion thread seems no longer on topic).

In short, I loved it. I thought you guys nailed the mood (music + artistic design), mission design, story, characters, etc… I also loved a lot of the little homages to other SF series (BSG, Babylon 5, etc…). I got Freespace 1+2 from GOG in the fall and played Freespace 1, 2, AoA, and WiH and while I thought AoA was a fine mod, I was truly impressed by WiH.

That said, there were some elements of the story I  didn't find convincing or strong:

1) The Vasudans seem to have no or a totally incapable intelligence service in the Blue Planet universe. Given that while they maintained separate fleets, the Vasudans and GTA had combined command structures by the time of the second Shivan incursion, it seems unlikely that the Vasudans would miss the build up of their Terran allies to going to war until just a few days before it happened. Then upon discovering the plans of their allies that they would be anything other than seriously angry seems unlikely. Vasudan as well as Terran systems are protected by the GTVA fleet and the humans are pulling fleet assets away from the defense of those systems and risking those fleet assets, including highly experienced personnel, in a war. Were the Shivans to attack during the engagement with Sol, GTVA forces could be out of position and decidedly less than they should be due to attrition.

Further for the Vasudans to then be tricked as Steele tricked them, they would have to have almost no basic understanding of the political landscape of the Earth system. Not knowing that the Gaians are antagonistic to the UEF would be the same as the UEF not knowing that Hammer of Light was antagonistic to the Vasudan Imperium. Tricking them into thinking the UEF are bad or untrustworthy is one thing, but for the Vasudans not to be just a little suspicious that according to their allies the Gaians are siding with the UEF stretches credulity. After all while it's been awhile, the Vasudan Parliament was supposedly known for its treachery, so it's not like they wouldn't have experience in double dealings. In short, neither of these are subtle failures of intelligence gathering, these are both massively huge failures of intelligence gathering and it seems unlikely that the Vasudans would be that incapable.

2) I don't think that the war is as morally gray as you wanted to make it. The reasons behind the GTVA's attack is that the UEF are weak pacifists who would spread that weakness and make the GTVA easy prey to the Shivans. That would be fair except that it obviously isn't true. The UEF clearly are not quite the pacifists maybe even they themselves would like to be. Case in point the UEFg Narayana and UED Solaris class vessels were built before the GTVA invasion in answer to … what exactly? The Gaians? So far the Gaian Effort seems to boast fighter craft and a few transports. While the building of such vessels may somewhat undercut the UEF's claim to uphold its own ideals, it completely negates the GTVA's rationale for going to war. The UEF built 3 huge destroyers and multiple heavy frigates when all they had to contend with militarily was a rag-tag force consisting of not-so-great fighters and small transports. The UEF clearly have the wherewithal and impetus to build powerful warships which is even more amazing given that they built this fleet from the resources of a single system, even if it is one as densely populated as Sol. As such, that the UEF could be a considered a threat via their philosophy to the GTVA's stance on defending humanity is not particularly believable. That makes the GTA's assault on the UEF about power and control, not philosophy or defending humanity. Thus, while you do a very good job of showing the basic humanity of enemy pilots, crews, and captains, I don't feel that there is as much of a moral quandary over the rights and wrongs of the war as it seems you wanted to present. Even the Tevs simply setting the UEF to be the bad guys to stop their own Terran civilization from collapsing seems odd since there are many ways the reintegration could have been handled without resorting to war and those would have to be implemented regardless of way. After all if the Tevs were to win, the exodus to Earth would simply happen then and you'd still have to deal with its ramifications. Also a war with the UEF could itself greatly destabilize the terran portion of the GTVA - especially under threat of straining the alliance with Vasudans by engaging in a war of aggression. Again, my understanding was that the GTVA security council was the prime authority and that included Vasudans (the V). I would not imagine that the Vasudans would be pleased about being excluded from such an important decision as this war which affects both species.

These were just a couple of items that stood out in an otherwise excellent story and really are mostly about the setup to the story in WiH. The actual story and the characters are very well drawn and overall I thought the writing (of which there is a lot ) is excellent.

Some elements of the story I really liked:

1) The characters: well drawn, believable, complex. Steele is very reminiscent of Patton to draw a WWII analogy. Simms is a great character. The love story between Simms and Laporte is actually ... sweet and a nice counterbalance to horrors of war you so aptly present. Laporte hovers nicely between mentally fragile and being hard-as-nails in a very believable way. You balanced that nicely.

2) Given the kind of introspective culture and character of Laporte you created, presenting her philosophical musings over war in her personal logs works very well and doesn't seem out-of-place. One thing though, while it does seem to be true that soldiers often fight and die for their comrades not causes, I would imagine the situation does change when you're literally defending your home from attack (as you yourselves showed in Darkest Hour with the Indus). At that point, while you're still not fighting for an intangible concept, there is indeed an added motivation beyond fighting for your comrades which, given the events of WiH, Laporte should be feeling on some level (i.e. the feeling that her home is under attack). However, even if you didn't vocalize that as eloquently as some of her other philosophical musings, you did show that motivation at some points, again Darkest Hour as a prime example (actually the intro too for that matter).

3) Delenda Est. First, great title. Second, I like that Calder and the Wardogs essentially made a classic military blunder: assuming that your enemy is incapable of doing something, which is second only to assuming your enemy is more capable than they actually are. It's a classic mistake and one made even by those who should know better. Third, I like that Steele's plan didn't need to be terribly complicated. Okay, I mean you can assume the spy was flipped and the Steele planned this exact scenario with the Carthage and the Imperieuse , but it doesn't even need to have been that complicated. One could surmise that he withdrew the Imperieuse to the rear, let it be known that he had withdrawn it completely back past the jump point, and then simply waited for UEF forces to overextend a large force without support believing they had all other GTVA forces pinned. It's a good reminder for why having a reserve force is important. In fact, had they coordinated with First fleet and First fleet been amenable, the UEF could have pulled a double entrapment and trapped the Imperieuse too. Ah well missed opportunities. In general I liked many of the tactic and strategies implemented in the WiH campaign.

4) I can't say enough good things about the music and how well it set the mood of the game. So all I'll say is: brilliant.

5) I almost forgot: I also quite liked the designs for the UEF and new GTVA ships/weapons in AoA and WiH both aesthetically and from a game mechanic standpoint.

Speaking of the gameplay I liked the new mechanics that you added in some of the missions and the missions themselves were very well designed. The addition of dialogue trees to the missions was unexpected and added an interesting dynamic. My one complaint was that sometimes from the briefings and dialogues it made it seem like I was meant to attack or prevent from leaving some enemy craft only to find them (and their engine subsystems) protected - a small annoyance when I felt like I had just wasted a bunch of paveways trying to disable a craft that couldn't be disabled.    I see from another thread that you guys are going to add more gameplay mechanics to the second release and I can't wait to try them out.

So for me with all that in mind, here is how I answered the census questions:
I identify with the Federation
I used a checkpoint at least once in the campaign
I called the bluff in M05
I thought Darkest Hour was just right
I killed Xinny and Zero
I found the Simms conversation easy
I though theta Nyx dogfight was okay
I understood the pointy system in Aristeia
I thought the Vasudan logistics incident was a terrible accident
I felt good in One Perfect Moment
I loved the soundtrack at the end of Pawns
I thought Delenda Est was just right
I love Admiral Steele
I want to kill Admiral Steele

Wow … wall of text