Author Topic: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches  (Read 9694 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
And I would say he's wrong.

The mediavps, whether they were designed to be that way or not, have over the years become a shared resource. Many mods have been designed to REQUIRE the mediavps (Like BP, for example), simply because it saves on total download volume if you just use ressources already present in the mvps. In addition, by using "known good" content from the mvps, you save yourself a lot of trouble in troubleshooting.

And seriously? The number of systems that can't even use the "standard" mediavps without the advanced stuff is really, REALLY low. Making sure that mods run on every little piece-of-crap VIA S3 system (to pick an example) is simply not viable.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Fury

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
That means that your mod should work without the upgrade.  If you want to use a high-res fancy texture that the mediaVPs supply, then your default mod sans-mediaVPs should supply the low-res, basic texture.  It shouldn't supply the high-res fancy texture itself -- if you think I'm saying that the mod should provide exactly what is in the mediaVPs in all respects, then you obviously don't understand the concept.  If your mod takes advantage of the mediaVPs' enhanced functionality, then you need to make sure it provides its own foundational functionality.
Let me check my calendar. Hrm, I'm sure this must be broken. Let me check another. No dammit, even this says it's 2010. Must be something wrong with my calendars.

Or maybe not.

If you have a computer that cannot handle mediavps, I feel sorry for you. You are entitled to your opinion about mediavps and dependency on them, but let me just say that I believe far majority of this community disagrees with you. Me included. And now, let's not make this a flamewar.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
I personally think Goober doesn't have a bloody clue. And fixing a mod to work with a new version of MVPs is most of the time a 5min job at most anyway.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Snail

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
And fixing a mod to work with a new version of MVPs is most of the time a 5min job at most anyway.
This is true for smaller mods, but with larger ones, no. Not so much.

  

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
I see benefits to both sides.. but here is my main concern.

I'm down with mods having to update to work with 3.6.12. And I'm also Ok with having to keep 3.6.10 until those mods do update...

But what about the older ones where the teams/leaders aren't around or don't care anymore. Am I supposed to sit and wait for FSCRP to get around to them while taking up precious HDD space with a lot of the same assets in 3.6.10 AND 3.6.12?

I'm just guessing that this painful process (while having many good benefits) will alienate some mods to the "too old to play anymore" category...

As a new guy, I wouldn't download mods that required me to search for and also download 3.6.10...
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Offline CP5670

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
I tried to keep compatibility without MVPs in PI mainly for the debugging reason Goober indicated. The MVPs change over time and I wanted to make sure that there was always a baseline for what the campaign should play like, if any issues come up later. I made the base campaign operate on the retail data, and used a collection of extra vp files that replace tbms from the corresponding MVP files. In one case, it was also necessary to have two different copies of a mission due to different turret positions on the original and high-poly Hecates.

 

Offline Macfie

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
:eek:

Goober +1

 :nervous:

I agree with Goober... it makes much more sense.

 :warp:

Don't FSPort and STR require the media VPS to work?

Anybody that says fixing a mod to work with a new version of the media VPs is at most a five minute job has never done it.
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Offline Qent

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
Don't FSPort and STR require the media VPS to work?
IIRC they will still work not only with retail data, but with the retail executable as well.

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
:wtf: Take your foot out of your mouth and do some research instead of jumping to conclusions.  This is not about dynamic linking or graphical enhancement, this is about functionality.  A mod should not require the mediaVPs in order to work, and it should be so for several reasons, the most important two of which have been explained on this forum ad nauseam for years.  First of all, if your mod has a bug that the SCP team is trying to track down, it's a lot easier to debug the mod by itself (with the mediavps disabled) than to debug the mod plus mediaVPs.  Second of all, there are users who don't use the mediaVPs for whatever reason -- perhaps their computer can't handle them, perhaps they have retail nostalgia -- and they don't want to be forced to play a mod that requires the mediaVPs to always be turned on.
The mediavps are probably the most extensively tested and heavily used custom assets in the entire FreeSpace community. Any bugs they have will get caught and fixed rather quickly due to the amount of use they get. They contain a vast amount of content that forms a sort of common platform for mods to work on. It's a vast amount of content that I don't have to bloat my own mod with because it's already there. And no, I will never, ever, ever, ever support retail or "retail look" with any of my projects. The graphical features are an integral component of my mods, and they are designed around them. Many other mods are like this too--Blue Planet: War in Heaven would be crippled without the new graphical features of 3.6.12 (which were not only meant to be there but created for the project). Video games are after all a visual experience above all--it's even in the name of the medium. Many people want their projects to look a certain way, and that way need not be the retail way.

Quote
You forget the primary purpose of the mediaVPs is to take existing assets and upgrade them. That means that your mod should work without the upgrade.  If you want to use a high-res fancy texture that the mediaVPs supply, then your default mod sans-mediaVPs should supply the low-res, basic texture.  It shouldn't supply the high-res fancy texture itself -- if you think I'm saying that the mod should provide exactly what is in the mediaVPs in all respects, then you obviously don't understand the concept.  If your mod takes advantage of the mediaVPs' enhanced functionality, then you need to make sure it provides its own foundational functionality.
It's also meant to be a common platform for advanced mods, a sort of mod equivalent to a DLL that you can plug in and work off of instead of dumping it all into your mod ("statically linking" it, if you will), and increasing both the size of the mod and your workload (integrating it, maintaining it, updating it) tremendously if you wish to use its entire feature set (and I use its entire feature set--any advancement made to the mediavps goes into Twist of Fate). And again, a lot of people do not care about the "basic" functionality of retail. I'm not making FreeSpace 2 1.06 mods, I'm making FreeSpace2_Open 3.6.12 mods, and I'm going to make the most of what's available to me. I'm not interested in retail, I'm not interested in 640x480, and I'm not interested in the hypothetical complaints of someone who can't spare $50 to get a used graphics card that can run the basic mediavps, whose numbers must be getting rather small these days considering that performance requirements haven't increased significantly for the base mediavps in years. I wouldn't be surprised if using the mediavps this way was one of the reasons why the mod.ini format has the primarylist and secondarylist features.

Quote
And you also have several easily refutable misconceptions about TVWP.  First of all, TVWP was developed independently -- and in a large part, actually before -- the mediaVPs, so it has very little in common with them.  Second of all, TVWP shares almost no models or weapons in common with the Port or retail FS2, so there's very little there for the mediaVPs to upgrade.  And finally, the core download of TVWP is only 32.1 megabytes.  The other 82.4 megabytes -- consisting of the brand new high-res interface, the glow/shine/normal maps, the backgrounds, and the rendered cutscene -- is entirely optional, and clearly marked as such, and TVWP was designed to run perfectly fine without it.
And at least the backgrounds and some of the effects were already in the mediavps and their presence in a separate download was entirely unnecessary. You could cut quite a bit from the optional media and replace it with a mod.ini linking to mediavps. And now that the mediavps have versioned folders, you'll be sure that the version of the mediavps loaded is always the correct one.

But what about the older ones where the teams/leaders aren't around or don't care anymore. Am I supposed to sit and wait for FSCRP to get around to them while taking up precious HDD space with a lot of the same assets in 3.6.10 AND 3.6.12?

Well, not only are the mediavps moving, but the codebase is moving--unless you're developing without FSO at all, you're going to have to support your mod and test it with new builds occasionally because you never know when a code change might break your mod--and even then it could still happen (INFR1 is a notable example--out of the box it to my knowledge only works with retail). The only assets truly "safe" are the stock Volition materials and missions.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 08:06:38 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
And I would say he's wrong.

The mediavps, whether they were designed to be that way or not, have over the years become a shared resource. Many mods have been designed to REQUIRE the mediavps (Like BP, for example), simply because it saves on total download volume if you just use ressources already present in the mvps. In addition, by using "known good" content from the mvps, you save yourself a lot of trouble in troubleshooting.

The larger your asset pool, the harder it is to maintain as well. Adding new assets is not a one-time investment of time and effort. I recently did a large-scale reorganization and updating of ToF's existing assets that made the mod not only look better but cut the total size by 200 megabytes (770 MB to 580). God only knows how large it would be as a standalone mod as it sits atop three mod folders listed as dependencies--FSPort mediavps, FSPort, and mediavps 3.6.12. Working on, say, 1500 MB of data would be far more tedious, time-consuming, and frustrating.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 08:08:08 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline utops

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches


It is okay for me that FSU team like things up to date. However this whole new level of gfx enhancments needs optimization,because they still far away from modern games graphic quality, but in the same time they are more demanding for hardware juice and this is obviously bad.
Also  backward compatibility in mods should be preserverd for folks who just want play favorite freespace game even on pentium 3 or cheap laptop,but this is modders call and they probaly don`t care and nothing about this   can be done hehe.
What if ?

 

Offline The E

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
It is okay for me that FSU team like things up to date. However this whole new level of gfx enhancments needs optimization,because they still far away from modern games graphic quality, but in the same time they are more demanding for hardware juice and this is obviously bad.
Also  backward compatibility in mods should be preserverd for folks who just want play favorite freespace game even on pentium 3 or cheap laptop,but this is modders call and they probaly don`t care and nothing about this   can be done hehe.

I do not know what to say here, except to suggest to you to learn to code, or model, or texture, and then help making it better. *****ing about it is the least efficient way of making the situation better.

Also, backwards compatibility to hardware that is 10 years old? Sorry, but I think that's not going to happen, at least from a model side. We're living in 2010, time to upgrade.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: MediaVP 3.6.12 Patches
It's especially absurd considering that the hardware described is the hardware retail was designed to run on. If you upgrade a 10-year-old game to modern standards, you aren't going to run it on the hardware the original assets ran on. That's just not possible.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta