[Mongoose]

You don't convince anyone that you have a good point by calling them a ****wit.

Sure. OTOH, if bigotry on this board is greeted solely with scorn and vitriol, well, it's a tad less likely bigotry will be expressed. Which is a positive thing. Even if we don't convince anyone to acknowledge the error of their ways. Or thinking.

But I'd say it's a far better goal to get people to reconsider their positions than to simply shut them up.  All you're doing there is muting the expression of the bigotry, not challenging it.

[karajorma]

but if I had to choose a debate team I sure as hell wouldn't pick half the liberals I hear talking about the subject, because they're just as bad as the conservatards IMO - they drive the tone of the debate just as low.

I wouldn't say they are as bad cause at least they are correct.


But I will agree that they should either be more tactful or a hell of a lot less. If they started screaming "If you are against the mosque, you are against the constitution and you support fascism!" people might listen. The problem is that they keep trying to maintain a middle ground of neither reasoned debate nor sinking to the Republicans level of demagoguery and that simply means that they fail to get through to the uninformed (who don't listen to shouting from the other side unless it's really simple).  

[Unknown Target]

You don't convince anyone that you have a good point by calling them a ****wit.

Sure. OTOH, if bigotry on this board is greeted solely with scorn and vitriol, well, it's a tad less likely bigotry will be expressed. Which is a positive thing. Even if we don't convince anyone to acknowledge the error of their ways. Or thinking.

But I'd say it's a far better goal to get people to reconsider their positions than to simply shut them up.  All you're doing there is muting the expression of the bigotry, not challenging it.

Agreed, thank you Mongoose, was getting a bit lonely here.

but if I had to choose a debate team I sure as hell wouldn't pick half the liberals I hear talking about the subject, because they're just as bad as the conservatards IMO - they drive the tone of the debate just as low.

I wouldn't say they are as bad cause at least they are correct.


But I will agree that they should either be more tactful or a hell of a lot less. If they started screaming "If you are against the mosque, you are against the constitution and you support fascism!" people might listen. The problem is that they keep trying to maintain a middle ground of neither reasoned debate nor sinking to the Republicans level of demagoguery and that simply means that they fail to get through to the uninformed (who don't listen to shouting from the other side unless it's really simple). 

I'd agree with that. The left simply sucks at getting out their message. Honestly I think they should be more tactful and peaceful, as that would push home that they are right - sinking to screamo matches and fear mongering would probably work more efficiently, but would serve to make their points indistinguishable from the right's in terms of how trustworthy they are.

[Spicious]

Just watch the video: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/08/daily_show_on_manhattan_islami.php

[Sushi]

I'm very sorely tempted to link you guys to a thread from a Descent forum discussing this same issue.  You'd probably weep at it. Lord knows I am.

Put up or shut up.

[NGTM-1R]

Man, people seem to be incapable of reading my posts in any depth; I didn't say you had to compromise, I said to talk. The reason I brought up King was because he went ahead with what he was doing, but didn't stoop to the level of argument that, say, mxlm is.

This is true, however it is true only because...

Wait. Wait.

Yea I think that's the main sticking point. They're refusing to compromise on something that they should really consider compromising on - they're kind of staying behind this wall of "we're trying to reconcile our differences", when in reality the refusal to compromise (again, on both sides) is making reconciliation even harder

No it's not! That is your starting posistion!

Then a couple posts down the page you converted to talking. I again sentence you to reading Letter From The Birmingham Jail twenty times because you're not getting it. Civil rights was not a dialogue; it was demand, a demand for things so breathtakingly normal to the general public that opposition to them could not be sustained without looking like monsters and fools. The same can be said of Indian independence.

That is the strategy here. It is wise, just, and necessary. You would have those who follow Islam wait, compromise, delay, talk. The time for talking, as King said in the aformentioned document, is past. The people building this indicated their willingness to talk and none voiced objection, so they proceeded. Now that the objection has come and the idiots appeared from the woodwork you would have them delay. Delay has never won anything for the rights of man, again to reference King. Let the naysayers rant and rave and scream. They damage their cause immeasurably more for every day. This is how the battle is won, and that you do not understand this is the great tragedy.

[Mongoose]

I'm very sorely tempted to link you guys to a thread from a Descent forum discussing this same issue.  You'd probably weep at it. Lord knows I am.

Put up or shut up.

Fair enough.

[Sushi]

I'm very sorely tempted to link you guys to a thread from a Descent forum discussing this same issue.  You'd probably weep at it. Lord knows I am.

Put up or shut up.

Fair enough.

 

I liked the Chicken Little post.

P.S. I'd forgotten how eye-wrenching the Descent BB color scheme is.

[Unknown Target]

No it's not! That is your starting posistion!

Then a couple posts down the page you converted to talking. I again sentence you to reading Letter From The Birmingham Jail twenty times because you're not getting it. Civil rights was not a dialogue; it was demand, a demand for things so breathtakingly normal to the general public that opposition to them could not be sustained without looking like monsters and fools. The same can be said of Indian independence.

That is the strategy here. It is wise, just, and necessary. You would have those who follow Islam wait, compromise, delay, talk. The time for talking, as King said in the aformentioned document, is past. The people building this indicated their willingness to talk and none voiced objection, so they proceeded. Now that the objection has come and the idiots appeared from the woodwork you would have them delay. Delay has never won anything for the rights of man, again to reference King. Let the naysayers rant and rave and scream. They damage their cause immeasurably more for every day. This is how the battle is won, and that you do not understand this is the great tragedy.

Ah, you caught me. You're right, I ended up changing my position as the thread went along. I guess I just had difficulty with separating this (worthwhile) shouting match from all the other shouting matches that really should be compromised on (the budget, for instance). Fair does, I admit it is wrong to compromise in this situation - which is why I've changed my tune over the last several posts.

I'm also off to read Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

EDIT: Very powerful stuff, that. Thanks for the recommendation.

[StarSlayer]

I'm very sorely tempted to link you guys to a thread from a Descent forum discussing this same issue.  You'd probably weep at it. Lord knows I am.

Put up or shut up.

Fair enough.

 

I liked the Chicken Little post.

P.S. I'd forgotten how eye-wrenching the Descent BB color scheme is.

I liked the 1812 comment, I was disappointed when the opposition didn't retort "They're gonna turn the Washington Monument into a Minaret!" that would have been perfection.

[mxlm]

If Islam is and always has been on the march, why is the thread titled, "when Islam acts like a conquering army"? It's like titling a thread, "When the sky is blue."

Which, to be fair, might have been the point.

[mxlm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQBrTROj2w

Hahahahahahahaha

[StarSlayer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQBrTROj2w

Hahahahahahahaha

I kept expecting to find out it was from South Park, it had the right sound and over the top silliness that I was assuming it to be satire.

[newman]

I kept expecting to find out it was from South Park, it had the right sound and over the top silliness that I was assuming it to be satire.

You know, this is most unfair. If these people continue to mock themselves this well they'll run South Park right out of business

[Bobboau]

ok, so in spite of voicing an opinion earlier I have for the most part been ignoring this issue, I decided to actually look into what has been going on. so there are a number of interesting details, such as originally it was planned to be a condo. however, it seems like the guy running the operation is not a bad guy, but is just really really bad at PR. I think what he needs to do is offer some sort of gesture that can let everyone else settle down, I think if they simply say that they are going to move the mosque/prayer-room to a different location, without actually changing anything in the building, then this situation might be able to blow over, and then they can re-purpose the room back to it's original purpose later.

[Turambar]

The black people can go back to sitting at the front of the bus as soon as there aren't any white people left on it

[Bobboau]

what does that have anything to do with anything anyone has said.

[Turambar]

You seem to be going along with the politician line of "they have every right to do it, but they shouldnt and they should be more sensitive"  which is a heaping pile of bull****.

(what's the point of having rights if you can't use them for fear of offending some retards)

[StarSlayer]

ok, so in spite of voicing an opinion earlier I have for the most part been ignoring this issue, I decided to actually look into what has been going on. so there are a number of interesting details, such as originally it was planned to be a condo. however, it seems like the guy running the operation is not a bad guy, but is just really really bad at PR. I think what he needs to do is offer some sort of gesture that can let everyone else settle down, I think if they simply say that they are going to move the mosque/prayer-room to a different location, without actually changing anything in the building, then this situation might be able to blow over, and then they can re-purpose the room back to it's original purpose later.

No
 
No No No No No No

This country was founded by people looking to escape religious persecution.  It's one of our fundamental freedoms, its one of the main reasons the melting pot works and why we haven't suffered massive civil strife based on religious matters.  You're looking to compromise on one of the things thats intrinsic to our nation's success. 
Not to mention you want to compromise and legitimize a position that is completely wrong.  Let's put this into perspective, you think we should throw a kinip**** if it was a German cultural center instead?  I mean those krafty kruats sure caused a lot of trouble back in the 30s and 40s its obvious that the entire Hun race is threat to our existence.  Does that sound like a legitimate idea?
Not to mention do you think we will ever have peace again if we allow the attitude that every Muslim in the world is the enemy to continue?  There's over a billion of them!

[Bobboau]

ok, so what you want to do is antagonize half the country, it doesn't have to amount to anything he just has to say he's moving the mosque when in reality he's doing nothing different other than pushing the opening ot the mosque back by a month.