Author Topic: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare  (Read 17273 times)

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Offline Aardwolf

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Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
In a "realistic" space warfare scenario, how can you possibly get the enemy to "lose your trail" once you've been spotted? Assuming of course that once one enemy spots you, they inform the rest of the enemy ships / observation network. This is really bad for your attack craft, because once they get spotted, either they have to stay on the field until they're dead, or return to their base as the bringer of death; as soon as the craft returns, the enemy which was watching that attack craft now knows where your base is, and can either blast it at long range with lasers, or track anything else deployed by it (and then hit any places those ships return to, along with the base they had previously spared).

I've got an idea how you might do it but I wonder what you guys can come up with.

But first: no FTL, no handwavium, and no violating the laws of thermodynamics.


Edit: removed spoiler tags. My idea was this:
Quote
Jam the bastards! If all their sensors can pick up is a blinding white / static, they can't track you! Hopefully...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 11:54:31 pm by Aardwolf »

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
one would have to assume there is a practical limit to the range of detection.  i imagine it would be much like air or naval combat today, just on a larger scale.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Put something between you and them. Preferably a star, but a planet might work.

Beyond that, jamming's more or less it.
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Assuming that they can't see you from far off, you could: destroy what spotted you, drop a nuke (for interference), and run like Hell, as it were.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
There's nothing that will work short of physical occlusion.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Well, unlike air and naval combat, there's no air to degrade the signal quality. At worst, it decreases a tiny bit worse than 1/r2 for passive sensors, and 1/r4 for active sensors.

That, and there's no horizon blocking your line of sight... unless you do what NGTM-1R suggested, of course. But then you have to pray that their distributed sensor network doesn't include anything on the other side.

Depending on the extent of their surveillance network (ships, sensor stations, dirt-cheap unmanned probes, etc.), the people watching you might have a limited "surveillance budget"... it would probably be easier for each node to track stuff closer to it, and if everything's focusing on tracking the one attack ship that just unloaded its payload on your colony, it's not focusing on tracking the ship that's got a full payload ready to drop on something else... Still, even if they had a very small surveillance budget, you could never be sure they weren't still tracking you (unless they're somehow incapable of using anything other than directional active sensors, of course).

Edit: In response to the stuff that was posted while I was typing (specifically Battuta's comment about physical occlusion)... even then, you can't be sure.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
invest in weaponry that has a longer effective range then your opponent.
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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Sensor decoys
Clone your own ship causing multiple targets
The previous mentioned kill them
Jammers
Outrun them
Broadcast porn on their radar frequency. 


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Offline watsisname

Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Broadcast porn on their radar frequency. 

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
The only effective stealth in space is moving towards your opponent's sensors at speeds only somewhat slower than the speed of the signals you give off.

This is why space warfare between any reasonably advanced 'real' species would simply become mutual destruction with RKVs. Inevitably all objects in predictable orbits (including planets) would have to be abandoned.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
They could also follow your propellent trail.......
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
They could also follow your propellent trail.......

That's pushing it more than a little. Particularly if you're not actively burning.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
The only effective stealth in space is moving towards your opponent's sensors at speeds only somewhat slower than the speed of the signals you give off.

This is why space warfare between any reasonably advanced 'real' species would simply become mutual destruction with RKVs. Inevitably all objects in predictable orbits (including planets) would have to be abandoned.

Yeah, I was thinking that. As soon as it became a "total war" scenario (i.e. where you're willing to obliterate cities or colonies), planetary colonies would just get obliterated by lasers at maximum range. A city can't jink, after all. Only a REALLY thick atmosphere could protect you, I think... maybe Venus or Titan. You might be able to dig deep enough underground on other planets that you could withstand bombardment, but then you have the trouble of not being able to dig back up (due to the enemy controlling the surface). And even if you dig really deep underground, they could always just make bigger bombs. Or gopher-bombs!

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
A few things to think about before we fall into the avoiding detection is impossible trap

what transit speed are we talking for the sensor signals? if we are talking EM frequency based systems then at 1 AU distance you have a there and back time of about 16 minutes.

also what about things like solar ejecta and gravitational distortion of the signal

finally we don't know what hull materials / energy shield systems space ships will employ and what sensor defeating properties they will have
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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Cloak and quote Shakespeare at them.
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Offline The E

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Only one problem.

Stealth for atmospheric craft is easy. There are two ways of detection, optical and radar (there's also audio, but we'll ignore that for now). To defeat optical detection, you need to have a paint scheme to blend into your surroundings.
Then there's infrared detection. You cannot fully defeat that, but you can reduce the risks by employing exhaust cooling mechanisms (Look at the Apache Gunship, the F-117 or the B2 for examples). If you're moving very fast, atmospheric friction will also screw you over, as the SR-71 proves.

To defeat radar, you can either absorb the radiation (heating up in the process) or scatter it.

Now. As we can see, stealth is a function of how well you can blend in with your surroundings. Let us now consider space. If our proposed stealth spacecraft is in front of empty space, it will stick out like a sore thumb on infrared, as it will be considerably hotter than its background. In addition, radar backscatter (which can only be reduced, never absorbed completely) means that you can safely treat any radar target you get as a threat (and micrometeorites are a large enough danger that you need to do that anyway).
Now, you speak of stealth fields and energy shields. Here's a hint. As long as you are emitting something, you are not blending in with the empty space surrounding you.
You can, of course, hide behind another celestial body. That will always work. You can't, however, hide in front of another celestial body (although it would work provided the distance between you and the target is big enough). All the emission-suppressing stuff you've been doing to blend in with empty space? Won't help you if you're hiding in front of a planet. You'll still stick out, simply because you'll be much colder than your surroundings.
Hiding in front of a star is easier as the star will blanket your emissions IF you are far enough away from your target.

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Offline Turambar

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Decoys, tons of them.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
I tend to think your best bet is automated warships.  So for example you were going to attack some system, you would need to begin the operation at least six months or so before your attended attack time.   Your warships would be accelerated into whatever trajectory led them to your desired attack positions, most likely around the major planets/colonies rough patrol areas.  They would then pretty much completely cut all power prior to detection range and coast in.  Some kind of timing device would be needed, lets say something analog and automatic for no energy emissions set to wake the ship after the time for reaching the activation area had expired.  The ship would need to cold start all its systems, identify and attack targets hopefully before it is destroyed.  

That said unless all parties are suicidal space warfare probably needs to be relegated with strict and specific rules of engagement, otherwise the first war will be the last.


P.S. Decoys probably won't work
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Offline headdie

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
If we are operating a high probability of detection and a sub-light craw into the system scenario then I would have to look at ignoring obtaining space superiority as a 1st objective.

I'm thinking using something StarSlayer's drone concept with 2 components  to the "fleet"

Component 1: The principle component of the fleet being a swarm of "smart" missiles who arrive in system, identify pre-programmed and/or targets-of-opportunity such as space installations, settlements, mining operations etc and attack using explosives, one shot energy weapons, chemical/Biological payloads.  auxiliary armament would be a small scattering of point defence weapons but mainly relying on evasive measures to deliver the attack.

Component 2: is a covering fleet programmed to shadow the missiles and act in their defence using a mix of heavy weapons to bring down large threats and faster tracking weapons to provide 1st line close defence against small craft and missiles.

Should the second component detect a retreat in enemy occupation of the system then have them signal that fact to us and we then deploy a more versatile occupation fleet
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
go to the far side of Jupiter and wait for **** to blow over (your buddies will have to tell you when it's safe)
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