Author Topic: The Thinking Atheist  (Read 11241 times)

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haha.. I'm in the next stage of that, anger, it genuinely frustrates me how people can be so.... .....ugh.
How many human hours, how many precious thoughts and brilliant potentials have been wasted on/by the premise of religion?
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Bobboau

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Offline Bobboau

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I'm in the next stage of that, anger

soon you'll be promising to be a good person from now on, if only people will just accept that the earth did not just voip into existence 600 years ago. you'll never pig out on poky again
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
indeed!

The times and the Telegraph are 'okay' out of those four, the other two are your typical tabloids, though I always felt the telegraph was our countries equivalent to fox news, and the times has slowly been heading that way too.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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How many human hours, how many precious thoughts and brilliant potentials have been wasted on/by the premise of religion?

You'll probably waste more time trying to figure that out, that's for sure. :P
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Quote: Tuesday, 3 October 2023 0133 UTC +8, #general
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Offline Kusanagi

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indeed!

The times and the Telegraph are 'okay' out of those four, the other two are your typical tabloids, though I always felt the telegraph was our countries equivalent to fox news, and the times has slowly been heading that way too.

I can't imagine anything being as obnoxious as Fox News, unless The Onion took itself seriously.

This is why I'm Deist. Remarkably enough, I was raised Christian and when I told my family that I was more agnostic, they though "Oh, it's just a phase. He'll grow out of it and turn back to the Church." Then when I mentioned to my family that after much introspection, reading, and soul searching, that Deism coincided with my beliefs more than Christianity did, many members disowned me and most of those that didn't look down on me. But hey, God is love, right?

I can count on one hand the number of Christians I have met in my life that actually act like Christ and practice the spirit of love they preach.
Cum historia
mutat valde Razgriz
revelat ipsum
primum daemon scelestus est.

 
I have never met your family and I already hate them :P
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline karajorma

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indeed!

The times and the Telegraph are 'okay' out of those four, the other two are your typical tabloids, though I always felt the telegraph was our countries equivalent to fox news, and the times has slowly been heading that way too.

Eh? I'll admit I've been out of the country a lot recently but when did The Guardian turn into a tabloid? :p

kara's post wasn't very clear on his point, but one thing was clear, he as many MANY before him is talking about rights, when this has never been the issue, no mater how badly he or many other people might be trying to stawman it into that.

You've missed the point completely then.

If you are trying to say "Because you do A, you shouldn't do B" you can quickly find an example of A for almost any person or group of people that gives you an excuse to say that they shouldn't do B.

And that's why it's a specious argument. You're trying to defend the claim that because Islam doesn't allow people into Mecca then no Muslim has the right to complain about the lack of tolerance over the Ground Zero mosque nonsense. But the simple fact is that I could easily make that into an argument about anything you want to do.

You consider yourself an American so......
You consider yourself a Libertarian so......
You consider yourself a Freespace fan so.......

It's a silly method of arguing, especially as it requires a generalisation about people's beliefs. How do you know that those Muslims do have an issue with people being allowed into Mecca? Maybe they wouldn't mind it. You simply do not know but have made the generalisation that since they are Muslims they are part of a religion that agrees with it and therefore must pay the price. You should see how easily I could turn that around to point out things you can't talk about simply because you are American.

I mentioned rights simply because they are analogous to the situation. Just because you do A doesn't mean you lose the right to do B. Similarly just cause the group you belong to says/believes A doesn't automatically mean you can't do B.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 08:58:14 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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saying "Because you do A, you shouldn't do B" is light eternities away from "Because you do A means you lose the right to do B".

and what was being said was "Because you do A, you have no ground to complain about them doing A". it's like Michal Jackson condemning the Catholic Church for being a pedo haven, or Bush demanding proof of something.
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Offline karajorma

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saying "Because you do A, you shouldn't do B" is light eternities away from "Because you do A means you lose the right to do B".

It's analogous. Whether you lose the actual right because you don't have it or you lose it because peer pressure forces you to do nothing the result is the same, you don't do it.

Quote
and what was being said was "Because you do A, you have no ground to complain about them doing A". it's like Michal Jackson condemning the Catholic Church for being a pedo haven, or Bush demanding proof of something.

Except that they aren't the same thing. Non-entry to Mecca has been the case for centuries, America is supposedly founded on religious freedoms in a way that Saudi Arabia isn't.

Furthermore as I pointed out, you are making massive generalisations and treating all Muslims as one entity. Were someone to do the same about any other group I'm sure you'd quickly point out the mistake there.

Besides, do you therefore think that Muslims lose the right to complain not only about not being able to build a cultural centre but up to and including being excluded from New York City because non-Muslims can't enter Mecca. If not, at what point exactly do you think they do get the right to complain?

How far do you take this anyway? Should a murder be unable to complain about the death penalty? The example of Michael Jackson is actually a very interesting one. Should a man found innocent by a jury of his peers be prevented from talking about a subject related to the crime he was found not-guilty of? Seems that you think public opinion and not the rule of law should determine that.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 01:07:22 am by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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no, one is a person's opinion, the other is law.




being pissed at someone pissing on a grave is markedly different from forbidding them from peeing. I think saying "you have the gall to ***** about that" is something anyone should be able to say if something hypocritical is being done. intolerance is intolerance, even if you both are in the wrong, if one of you complains about it, it is still a valid criticism to point it out.
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Offline Scotty

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But that's exactly the problem.  The supposed intolerance on the side of the Muslims is drawn from a broad generalization that in no way reflects the opinion or attitude of any given member of the religion.

Let's take a look at a slightly different example that makes just about the same point in a more relatable way.

"A small group of white anglo-saxon males lynched a black man, some sixty years ago.  That means you have no right to complain when a black person kills a white person today."

A broad generalization that may or may not be true for some small percentage of the population, but is seriously ****ed up when applied to the whole.

 

Offline karajorma

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being pissed at someone pissing on a grave is markedly different from forbidding them from peeing. I think saying "you have the gall to ***** about that" is something anyone should be able to say if something hypocritical is being done. intolerance is intolerance, even if you both are in the wrong, if one of you complains about it, it is still a valid criticism to point it out.

But who is being intolerant? You're generalising all Muslims based on the opinion of those Muslims in charge of Saudi Arabia. Which is rather silly given that most of the Muslims who will use that community centre are much more secular than those in charge there.

So based on the fact you are being intolerant against all Muslims by generalising them should I now argue that you should shut up too?
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Oh, come on. Much of the world is filled with Muslims. If all of them were bad, the United States would be faring a lot worse now.

I've met a fair share of Muslims during my time in school, and I know that there are a number of them who are good people.
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Offline Bobboau

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no I'm not talking about all Muslims, I'm only talking about the ones who think it's a good idea to construct a shrine to there religion in a plot that had a building damaged to the point of being abandoned by followers of that religion.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Turambar

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Shrine?  I was under the impression it was more like a YMCA
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Offline Bobboau

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with a prayer room.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline Scotty

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no I'm not talking about all Muslims, I'm only talking about the ones who think it's a good idea to construct a shrine to there religion in a plot that had a building damaged to the point of being abandoned by followers of that religion.

Wat.

You reference the Islamic community as a whole when you bring up the refusal to let non-Muslims into Mecca, which may or may not be the attitude of those building the community center.  You're generalizing either way, and it's still wrong.

And that's also like saying that Christians shouldn't be able to build community centers in Oklahoma City because a follower of Christianity did much the same thing there with a car bomb as the 9/11 terrorists did with planes.

 

Offline Bobboau

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no that is a moronic comparison, because Oklahoma City is like 95% Christian, try to come up with an example where a minority attacked a majority please cause otherwise you are just throwing out nonsense.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline iamzack

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Southern slave revolts. BAN PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CHURCHES IN THE SOUTH.

Oh yeah, and weren't white people a minority in North America when we started with the raping and the pillaging and the murdering of the natives? BAN ALL THE CHURCHES.
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