Author Topic: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.  (Read 5107 times)

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Offline nodlew

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Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Howdy folks. I've been playing Free Space for years, so I'm familiar with the SCP, and the various mods that have been produced (in production) for the game. I've been on a years-long hiatus from the game, but recently I got a hankering to blow stuff up in space again. I looked around for anything new in the Space-Sim Genre, and predictably found nothing of any interest. So I came back to FS2 and the SCP to see what you guys have been up to.

All I can say is "Wow." This game really looks fantastic now. Blue Planet War in Heaven looks to be the best-looking and best written/produced space sim mod I've ever seen. If only the voice acting was done for it...but that will come, surely.

I'm especially pleased that now it is possible to play the game with decent cockpits for the fighters. Blue Planet has cockpits for most of the stock fighters, and of course the custom cockpits for the new fighters are fantastic.

I would like to be able to tweak the existing cockpits myself. Nothing too ambitious right now--I just want to make some minor changes to get rid of the most obvious discrepencies--remove some extraneous elements, line things up correctly, etc. Maybe make a decent cockpit for the Myrmidon.

I would like some advice, info on how to do so. I have done some very basic modding for other games, but never for FreeSpace. I have everything downloaded--used the installer, so I have all of the publicly available tools.

Basic questions are:

Where do I find the cockpits that are in my game now?
What kind of files are they? What modding tool do I use to edit the image files? One big thing--one cockpit, the one that shows up for the Hercules MKII and for the Pegasus, has a small square panel. This panel has a miniaturized representation of the standard Hud printed on it. The Cockpit would work much better if I could just remove that stuff from the panel--then I could move the HUD itself around until it makes more sense visually.

Regarding the HUD--I need to make adjustments in the position of gauges. I have read the thread related to Swifty's HUD rewrite and have been trying to manipulate HUDs using the HUD gauges tbl file, but I am not getting far. I change coordinates for things and they don't change position. I try different configurations and the hud just disappears from the game.

Any information will be much appreciated.

Yours, nodlew

 
Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Here's a post I cobbled together from a bunch of threads about cockpits.

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71151.0

Towards the end of the OP is the part about the -Cockpitmod which is really useful. When you use showship you are seeing the low poly cockpit that was buildt into the model. There's a file to download that has the Terran ships from BP:AoA and Mediavps and a generic cockpit the can be used.

Once you have those then you should have a better idea how to model a cockpit. I've been working on one for the Perseus.
Did you hear that fellas? She says I have a Meritorious Unit.

 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Thanks rscaper,
I will check out that link right away. So the game had cockpits built into it from the start? I'll be damned. I guess they left them out because they considered them inadequate or they worried about gameplay or frame-rate issues. 

 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Towards the end of the OP is the part about the -Cockpitmod which is really useful.

I downloaded it, assembled the parts into a mod folder just as described, added the line in the Custom flags window in the launcher and...true to form, I get nothing, zilch in game.  :(

Trying to figure out what I did wrong. It should be compatible with Mediavps_3612, right?


 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
I got it. The instructions didn't specifically say that the subfolders needed to be placed in a "data" folder. If you follow the instructions in the post to the letter, you end up with a problem. Got it though. I like the generic cockpit very much. Thanks for your help.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Thanks rscaper,
I will check out that link right away. So the game had cockpits built into it from the start? I'll be damned. I guess they left them out because they considered them inadequate or they worried about gameplay or frame-rate issues. 

No. Cockpits are an addition made possible by the SCP. Retail doesn't, and indeed can't, have them.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Do the cockpits work better now? I remember trying them back in some of the earlier MediaVPs versions, with mostly bad results; viewpoint off, glass reflecting the nebulae and stuff, making it impossible to see, and so on.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
You'll have to try yourself. Personally, I don't like them.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Do the cockpits work better now? I remember trying them back in some of the earlier MediaVPs versions, with mostly bad results; viewpoint off, glass reflecting the nebulae and stuff, making it impossible to see, and so on.

I believe the glass reflection issue has been fixed, but I'm not sure.

 
Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
I got it. The instructions didn't specifically say that the subfolders needed to be placed in a "data" folder. If you follow the instructions in the post to the letter, you end up with a problem. Got it though. I like the generic cockpit very much. Thanks for your help.

Whoops, sorry about that. I've made the change to the post. Thanks for the edit.
Did you hear that fellas? She says I have a Meritorious Unit.

 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
I don't understand why I'm having such problems here. I'm certain I've got everything put together correctly now, but I still have a hard time getting the cockpits to show up in game. For instance--I can get the Generic Cockpit to work for, say the Herc II, but then it stops showing up for the Myrmidon. I'm just editing the tbm files with notepad. Could that be the problem?


No. Cockpits are an addition made possible by the SCP. Retail doesn't, and indeed can't, have them.

If the SCP made the cockpits, then why (and forgive any seeming impertinence on my part) given the quality of everything else it's done didn't they do a little better job? Why did it/they put that miniature non-functioning hud  on the target screen of the cockpit for the HercII? And having put it there, why have they never removed it? Why didn't/haven't they made a simple cockpit for the Myrmidon? Why have none of the glitches with the cockpits AS IS been ameliorated? As far as I'm concerned, a decent cockpit is a MUST when it comes to getting immersed in the game, suspending my disbelief, getting into the experience. And I really don't ask for much. I don't require interactive buttons, or remote turrets, or even a detailed model of my pilot--just a framework that suggests the cockpit of the ship I'm in, perhaps a little reflective glass to add a touch of coolness, the suggestion of an instrument panel, and somewhere for my hud gauges to go.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 08:40:13 pm by nodlew »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
No. The problem is that the cockpit hack relies on the fighter model in question having a modelled cockpit. Not every one has one; the Myrmidon, as well as all ships that haven't been hi-polied, don't have a cockpit.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
And yet, the Generic cockpit will work with the Myrmidon--works admirably. However, sometimes it works, and sometimes it don't. If I could figure out why it works when it works and don't when it won't, then I would be golden. What I'm having to do, is keep messing with the tbm file until the ship I am currently flying has the cockpit, then as soon as I have a new ship, I'll have to fix that one to have the cockpit. It's better than no cockpit, but it's still a giant pain in the ass.

 
Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
The thing about the Myrmidon is that the pilot is basically on a motorcycle like control system inside a bubble. So you're not going to see much of a cockpit.
 On the other hand if you were to model one you would have those big guns on either side when you looked. I believe Nuke has created ways to animate weapons for such a thing (or that might be wishful thinking). But still looking straight ahead in the Myrmidon would be an unobstructed view, pretty much the ideal for a fighter pilot.
 I get what your saying though. I prefer having a frame of reference to make it feel as if I'm really flying the ship.  

Edit: I was thinking of the Ulysses in regards to the guns but I imagine the Myrmidon has a similar control set up, you just can't see it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 10:18:33 pm by rscaper1070 »
Did you hear that fellas? She says I have a Meritorious Unit.

 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
I prefer having a frame of reference to make it feel as if I'm really flying the ship.

Exactly. As for the Myrmidon, it seems to me that its cockpit would be very much like the cockpit of the Ulysses. All you would need is some bubble glass to look through, with perhaps a cross bar to correspond with the model, and an instrument panel to put the hud gauges into. The Generic Cockpit, actually, works fine, hud gauges line up pretty well and everything.  I just need to figure out how to insert it into the ship model so that the ship is there around the cockpit. Oh well, lucky I have lots of time on my hands.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Cockpits have never really been a priority for the FreeSpace Upgrade Project because retail FS2 didn't have them. I know I'd turn them off whenever possible even in mods where they were available.

 

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Cockpits have never really been a priority for the FreeSpace Upgrade Project because retail FS2 didn't have them.

Well, I guess I don't understand that point of view at all. All of the more ambitious mods have tried to implement cockpits. The whole point of an UPGRADE is to improve on the Retail product. I mean, I understand that cockpits could be a bone of contention--one player's idea of what constitutes a workable cockpit might be very much at odds with another, so there might be a hesitancy to tackle the cockpits from a modder's point of view. Individuals apparently pursue their own ideas along those lines while nothing is done "officially" to make tolerable in-game cockpits for the upgraded versions of the retail game.

Last night, for the first time, I cracked open a POF file using the model viewer. Tonight I figured how to switch to the model editor. Milestones. Now I need to find a modeling tutorial and I will become yet another individual individually seeking his individual solution to what is, for many people, an absolutely must have feature of the game in terms of bringing FreeSpace into the present as a playable space sim--a cockpit. Name a single decent space sim produced in remotely recent history that doesn't have a 3d cockpit view? Hell, Tie Fighter had a cockpit view--without the cockpit view, Tie Fighter would have been hugely degraded. The idea of these games is to create the sensation (a la Yorkshire Peppermint Patties) of flying a fighter in space combat. Fighters have cockpits. The cockpit is absolutely essential to creating that feel. The lack of a cockpit makes a game feel like some kind of '80s arcade game. In FreeSpace, you spend, essentially the whole game staring out of your cockpit. As such, ideally, there 1) should be cockpits; 2) they should be distinct to the individual fighters reflecting the different styles of different ships; 3) they should be detailed and pleasant to look at; 4) they should be minimally funtional (gauges should correspond with panels); 5) they should be more than minimally functional, they should (ideally) be highly functional, interactive. There should be clickable buttons for things like radar range, weapon selection, engine thrust, etc., screens should be multi-functional, bringing up sub-menu's for things like sub-system targeting, detailed damage reports and so on.

And of course, they should be optional, perhaps enabled as a separate mod so that people who didn't want them could dis-include them, and people could make their own variations to suit their own tastes. So what is needed, I suppose, is a cockpit module which lays the basic groundwork for the cockpits of all the retail ships, but with built-in provisions for customization of the cockpits themselves and of the HUD gauge layout.

The "cockpit mod" is a first step in that direction, it seems to me.

But why stop with the fighters? What's to prevent the implementation of Bridge Control interface for taking control of capital ships? The UI used in the old Starshatter Game could be taken as an inspiration.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
I agree with you on most counts, but would like to comment on the fact that those requirements are pretty ambitious. Especially the interactive, clickable part. This is because limitations in the model format of FS2_Open.

One feature that is needed before cockpits become not only useable but practical is player-controlled dynamic field of view, or in other words, adjustable zoom. At narrow field of view, not much of the cockpit is visible when looking straight ahead, making it wasteful to make the cockpit visible in the first place. If player can control the field of view as they need, this problem is diminished - when flying around or dogfighting, wide field of view can be used, and when looking at something distant, narrow field of view can be used.

Another thing that hugely improves cockpit view is head tracking. FS2_Open already supports five degrees of freedom for its TrackIR implementation, so this is only a problem in the sense that most people don't have this incredibly useful asset. I myself have a reasonably well-functioning FreeTrack rig though, and that wonderful program opens the world of DIY-head tracking to anyone who really wants to get it working.


Some of the problems you mentioned (like the opaque HUD) are not related to the cockpit support at all - they are a result of modeling the cockpits for external viewing, not internal. They were made before "show ship" flag begun to be used to show the cockpits in-game, and therefore were not designed for that. Because of that, things like HUD placement and transparency issues were simply ignored with regards to practical gameplay. In addition, many ships have ridiculously stupid cockpit construction from practical point of view. Erinyes is a particularly bad offender, but there are others as well. General visibility to the rear is also very lacking even in ships where it wouldn't need to be.

So not only do you have technical difficulties to solve (like cockpit gauges done with render-to-texture, showing actual information instead of a static texture), you have to fight the ship designs themselves to make the cockpits actually worth using.

Also, some players just think cockpits get in the way and are annoying, but as a flight sim enthusiast I have to agree with you that they do increase the feeling of immersion quite significantly, and I wish you good fortune and perseverance on your quest.

Oh, and welcome to wonderful world of modding. :)
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

  

Offline nodlew

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Thanks for your reply, Herra
and the info, co-miseration, and encouragement. Already I have figured out how to remove the incredibly offensive "mini-hud" from the Tercoc01.dds. Finding that file in the Mediavps and figuring out which tool to use to open it to copy and edit it has been a little journey in itself. Now that panel is pleasantly blank. My problem now is I am enabling the modded texture as in a separate mod folder, but in order for it to show up, I need to double its dimensions, which produces a blurry image. I don't particularly like the texture anyway and my next step will be to start creating my own hi-res replacement textures. For anyone else, in the meantime, who hates that mess on the screen as much as I do, I would be happy to make my fix available through Mediafire. I would like to be able to manipulate my Hud gauges to make things line up better, but even having read Swifty's thread and having downloaded the associated files--I'm still doing something wrong there. I'll figure it out, I guess.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Not a total noob, but a modding noob--need some pointers.
Cockpits have never really been a priority for the FreeSpace Upgrade Project because retail FS2 didn't have them.

Well, I guess I don't understand that point of view at all. All of the more ambitious mods have tried to implement cockpits.

Really? I don't remember cockpits in Beyond the Red Line, Blue Planet, The Babylon Project...I'm not sure I've ever seen a mod with cockpits released so far. Diaspora and The End Project both seem to be putting effort into them.

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The whole point of an UPGRADE is to improve on the Retail product. I mean, I understand that cockpits could be a bone of contention--one player's idea of what constitutes a workable cockpit might be very much at odds with another, so there might be a hesitancy to tackle the cockpits from a modder's point of view. Individuals apparently pursue their own ideas along those lines while nothing is done "officially" to make tolerable in-game cockpits for the upgraded versions of the retail game.

Well, I have nothing against cockpits being present, and if you get them working that'd be awesome.

Quote
Last night, for the first time, I cracked open a POF file using the model viewer. Tonight I figured how to switch to the model editor. Milestones. Now I need to find a modeling tutorial and I will become yet another individual individually seeking his individual solution to what is, for many people, an absolutely must have feature of the game in terms of bringing FreeSpace into the present as a playable space sim--a cockpit. Name a single decent space sim produced in remotely recent history that doesn't have a 3d cockpit view?

Sure, FreeSpace 2. I've just never considered cockpits that important. I'm totally okay with other players wanting them, but don't try to assume that everybody shares your tastes. They come up a lot on community wish lists, but Diaspora will probably be the first mod to put a lot of effort into them.

Quote
Hell, Tie Fighter had a cockpit view--without the cockpit view, Tie Fighter would have been hugely degraded. The idea of these games is to create the sensation (a la Yorkshire Peppermint Patties) of flying a fighter in space combat. Fighters have cockpits. The cockpit is absolutely essential to creating that feel. The lack of a cockpit makes a game feel like some kind of '80s arcade game.

To you, remember.  :cool:

Quote
In FreeSpace, you spend, essentially the whole game staring out of your cockpit. As such, ideally, there 1) should be cockpits; 2) they should be distinct to the individual fighters reflecting the different styles of different ships; 3) they should be detailed and pleasant to look at; 4) they should be minimally funtional (gauges should correspond with panels); 5) they should be more than minimally functional, they should (ideally) be highly functional, interactive. There should be clickable buttons for things like radar range, weapon selection, engine thrust, etc., screens should be multi-functional, bringing up sub-menu's for things like sub-system targeting, detailed damage reports and so on.

It would be awesome if you could achieve this, though I have to warn you that interactive cockpits - while doable - are a very long shot.

Quote
But why stop with the fighters? What's to prevent the implementation of Bridge Control interface for taking control of capital ships? The UI used in the old Starshatter Game could be taken as an inspiration.

War in Heaven was the first time the community's ever produced a reasonably coherent capship command mission. Go check it out, see how you'd like the interface improved.