Author Topic: wesp5's concerns  (Read 6214 times)

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Offline wesp5

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Hi everybody. I played an early version of TBP a long time ago when it wasn't yet stand-alone and only the Earth/Minbari war demo was available and I just recently stumbled over it again and was amazed to see how much it had improved in the meantime and that it is even in development today! Many thanks to everyone involved and seeing that you are still on it, may I make some suggestions ;)?

- I think the bright light inside a jump-point torus is to much towards the front. When situated e.g. above and towards the side from one this is clearly visible and does not look good or like in the show. Can it be moved further into the torus' tip?

- I think star-furies should be able to slide or strafe left and right and up and down but when I use the thrust controls this doesn't happen. Am I overlooking something here? Are the slide and bank options made for this? Why not separate keys?

- I noticed that the Earth/Minbari war campaign is stilled called "demo". I'm probably right in guessing that it will not be continued so why don't you rename it to Earth/Minbari war and get rid of the "demo" which just looks unfinished ;).

- I also experienced that the Zathras update is done very unprofessional compared to the installer of the main project. Not only is a separate download with manual extraction and manual build selection in the launcher needed, it hasn't even got a readme. I don't know what discussions went on here at that time but why don't you integrate it into the main project and call it TBP 3.5 or something. Because 3.4b sound suspiciously like a beta and TBP is much more than that :)!

 

Offline babylon5comlink

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I think I can answer a few of your suggestions/questions:

- I think the bright light inside a jump-point torus is to much towards the front. When situated e.g. above and towards the side from one this is clearly visible and does not look good or like in the show. Can it be moved further into the torus' tip?
Could be implemented in Zathras I think. I have never noticed a problem with the jumpoints. :lol:

- I think star-furies should be able to slide or strafe left and right and up and down but when I use the thrust controls this doesn't happen. Am I overlooking something here? Are the slide and bank options made for this? Why not separate keys?
I wasn’t aware of those options being available-Um…..FUBAR-BDHR a little help  :nervous:


- I noticed that the Earth/Minbari war campaign is stilled called "demo". I'm probably right in guessing that it will not be continued so why don't you rename it to Earth/Minbari war and get rid of the "demo" which just looks unfinished ;).
The reason why it is still a demo is because some people are hoping that someone else will make a lengthier Earth/Minbari War Campaign  :rolleyes:

- I also experienced that the Zathras update is done very unprofessional compared to the installer of the main project. Not only is a separate download with manual extraction and manual build selection in the launcher needed, it hasn't even got a readme. I don't know what discussions went on here at that time but why don't you integrate it into the main project and call it TBP 3.5 or something. Because 3.4b sound suspiciously like a beta and TBP is much more than that :)!
It might be possible to create an installer for Zathras. However you suggestion for a TBP 3.5 cannot be fulfilled because: TBP is FINAL and the core is to remain as is and not to be modified in any way.

Anything not already included in the installation should not be placed in the main TBP folder or under its data folder. A Mod folder should be used for all changes and additions including but not limited to models, campaigns, sounds, missions, tables, weapons, animations, etc.

Zathras is a mod.

Anybody else is welcome to add in more information I left out or I am incorrect on

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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Hi everybody. I played an early version of TBP a long time ago when it wasn't yet stand-alone and only the Earth/Minbari war demo was available and I just recently stumbled over it again and was amazed to see how much it had improved in the meantime and that it is even in development today! Many thanks to everyone involved and seeing that you are still on it, may I make some suggestions ;)?

- I think the bright light inside a jump-point torus is to much towards the front. When situated e.g. above and towards the side from one this is clearly visible and does not look good or like in the show. Can it be moved further into the torus' tip?

This is actually controlled by the game engine.  We would need to find someone that can reprogram the effect.

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- I think star-furies should be able to slide or strafe left and right and up and down but when I use the thrust controls this doesn't happen. Am I overlooking something here? Are the slide and bank options made for this? Why not separate keys?

All StarFury's have both slide and glide capabilities.  Check your bindings for these functions. 

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- I noticed that the Earth/Minbari war campaign is stilled called "demo". I'm probably right in guessing that it will not be continued so why don't you rename it to Earth/Minbari war and get rid of the "demo" which just looks unfinished ;).

It is just a mini demo campaign.  A longer version was planned but never became reality.  Hopefully someday someone will do one.

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- I also experienced that the Zathras update is done very unprofessional compared to the installer of the main project. Not only is a separate download with manual extraction and manual build selection in the launcher needed, it hasn't even got a readme. I don't know what discussions went on here at that time but why don't you integrate it into the main project and call it TBP 3.5 or something. Because 3.4b sound suspiciously like a beta and TBP is much more than that :)!

Not even going to get into this. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline wesp5

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Could be implemented in Zathras I think. I have never noticed a problem with the jumpoints. :lol:

I just read that FUBAR wrote it is supposed to be an engine feature, but I'm almost certain this light wasn't included at all in the first versions of the mod, because I remember complaining about it at the time ;).

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I wasn’t aware of those options being available-Um…..FUBAR-BDHR a little help  :nervous:

There are separate keys for trust up/down/left/right but they do nothing. How do I slide like in a FPS?

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The reason why it is still a demo is because some people are hoping that someone else will make a lengthier Earth/Minbari War Campaign  :rolleyes:

But calling it still a demo after all this time seems a little bit strange to me. If the campaign is prolonged it can be called 2.0 or something.

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It might be possible to create an installer for Zathras. However you suggestion for a TBP 3.5 cannot be fulfilled because: TBP is FINAL and the core is to remain as is and not to be modified in any way.

Why is it called 3.4b then? What does the b stand for? Usually it stands for beta...

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Zathras is a mod.

Still without any readme I extracted the files into the main folder where other similar files are. It seemed to work besides that I couldn't access my pilot anymore which is why I reverted to the original verison for now. A installer should definately be considered for Zathras 2.0, if you can't change the core files why not merge it with the The Babylon Project Campaign Pack 2.0? At least for the DVD 2.0 everything should be together :)!

 

Offline babylon5comlink

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I just read that FUBAR wrote it is supposed to be an engine feature, but I'm almost certain this light wasn't included at all in the first versions of the mod, because I remember complaining about it at the time ;).
The Freespace game engine must have changed or something……..I think.  :rolleyes:

There are separate keys for trust up/down/left/right but they do nothing. How do I slide like in a FPS?
I am not really that much of technically knowledgeable person :blah:. I just know how to solve most of the common problems that occur. :nervous:

But calling it still a demo after all this time seems a little bit strange to me. If the campaign is prolonged it can be called 2.0 or something.
Welcome to the strange world of TBP  :lol:

Why is it called 3.4b then? What does the b stand for? Usually it stands for beta...
I have no clue ask the moderators. :rolleyes:

Still without any readme I extracted the files into the main folder where other similar files are. It seemed to work besides that I couldn't access my pilot anymore which is why I reverted to the original version for now. An installer should definitely be considered for Zathras 2.0, if you can't change the core files why not merge it with the Babylon Project Campaign Pack 2.0? At least for the DVD 2.0 everything should be together :)!
You can’t access your pilot files because fs2_open_3_6_9 INF pilot files are not compatible with fs2_open_3_6_10_INF pilot files. So you probably did put everything in the right place. I know that Zathras will be included with DVD 2.0. not sure about it being installed as part of the installation process though.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 08:58:58 pm by babylon5comlink »
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Offline Trivial Psychic

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I just read that FUBAR wrote it is supposed to be an engine feature, but I'm almost certain this light wasn't included at all in the first versions of the mod, because I remember complaining about it at the time ;).
The flash-on-warp thing was actually introduced for the Freespace warp effect.  I realized that it could go a bit of the way towards simulating the B5 jump point flash, so I just inserted the same effect... originally created by Bobbeau IIRC (since it was he that created the SCP addition).  Now, in the show, the flash sort of opens at where the mouth of the cone would be, and traverses down to the tip of the cone, as the jump point expands.  There's also a flash just where the jump point disappears when it closes.  We can't simulate the effect to THAT degree of accuracy, without some significant code changes, or perhaps scripting... which to my knowledge, isn't included in TBP.  The effect was added into TBP at about 3.3 or 3.3a.

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There are separate keys for trust up/down/left/right but they do nothing. How do I slide like in a FPS?
First of all, you may have simply not bound the controls to any button or key.  Secondly, for ships like the Starfury, side, up/down, and reverse thrust aren't very powerful, so you may not be noticing any effect because you're expecting something bit, or you aren't holding down the control long enough to notice.  Also, you may not be aware of the "Glide" feature, which I believe is included in Zathras.  It allows you to head in a direction, then hold down the "glide" key (that you've bound to some key of choice) and turn your ship.  Your fighter will continue in the same direction and speed that it was when you activated glide, but you'll be re-aiming your fighter, so you can fire on a cap-ship as you pass by it.

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But calling it still a demo after all this time seems a little bit strange to me. If the campaign is prolonged it can be called 2.0 or something.
Because its not a full campaign.  The closest thing you'd be able to call it is a mini-campaign, and there's little point in renaming it, because it could get confusing for people such as yourself who played the original Demo, and think its something new because its not a "Demo" anymore, only to find out its the same thing you played earlier, and get pissed off.

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Why is it called 3.4b then? What does the b stand for? Usually it stands for beta...
Actually, although I wasn't part of the team for 3.4, the "b" addition likely refers to a problem being discovered with the 3.4 release, so a patch was added to fix the problem.  Then, the 3.4 and the 3.4b patch were included in the same file download for simplicity.  That's what I'm guessing, since the same thing happened for the 3.3 release.

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Still without any readme I extracted the files into the main folder where other similar files are. It seemed to work besides that I couldn't access my pilot anymore which is why I reverted to the original version for now. A installer should definitely be considered for Zathras 2.0, if you can't change the core files why not merge it with the The Babylon Project Campaign Pack 2.0? At least for the DVD 2.0 everything should be together :)!
I can't really speak on the steps of the install, but as it was said, the Zathras packages are a mod for TBP.  Its somewhat of a touchy subject, but there was some intense debate on whether TBP should be considered final.  Some said that we needed to finally declare the mod complete, partially to make it easier to make new campaigns so both new and old ones could be brought to a specific standard and leave it at that.  On the other hand, it was felt that with the Source Code Project constantly improving the engine itself, and with features being both added and altered in the process, work on TBP should continue indefinitely, ensuring compatibility with latest SCP builds, and to take advantage of new features.  The debate was... heated, and ultimately led to the TBP itself being declared FINAL, while those team members who wished to see more improvements and ensure continued compatibility, kept their work going by starting the Zathras project.  Just as with Freespace, the core files of the game are FINAL, and a group of talented individuals are creating the MediaVPs to take advantage of new features and improved effects and models, TBP 3.4b is the final, while Zathras is the equivalent of the MVPs.  For this reason, Zathras and TBP itself, MUST be kept as separate items.  To do anything else would throw off the balance and agreements of the team members, both new and old.

I hope this helps somewhat.
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Offline Vidmaster

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good summary indeed.
Devoted member of the Official Karajorma Fan Club (Founded and Led by Mobius).

Does crazy Software Engineering for a living, until he finally musters the courage to start building games for real. Might never happen.

 

Offline wesp5

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The effect was added into TBP at about 3.3 or 3.3a.

Ah, so I remembered right about that :). Maybe it would be possible to fix the location issue and make the flash effect more similar to the show at the same time by only having it for a second when the point opens and as well when a ship enters and then remove it immediately before anyone notices it's not placed correctly?

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Secondly, for ships like the Starfury, side, up/down, and reverse thrust aren't very powerful, so you may not be noticing any effect because you're expecting something bit, or you aren't holding down the control long enough to notice.

That may be possible, but this is not how it was shown on the show. I remember a scene where Star Furies were training to quickly thrust up to avoid Centauri fire. So could the power of these directional thrusts be increased?

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Also, you may not be aware of the "Glide" feature, which I believe is included in Zathras.  It allows you to head in a direction, then hold down the "glide" key (that you've bound to some key of choice) and turn your ship.

Cool, I'll try that next! But as I wrote, I had to disable Zathras to not loose my pilot status. BTW, I just played the fascinating "Dark Children" campaign and now I can't seem to get back to the other campaigns in the Simulator Missions window. Is this a bug with that campaign or do I miss a special key or a hidden place to click into?

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Because its not a full campaign.

Hm, it was a long time ago but I think it was at least as long as "Dark Children". Even if there isn't a chance that it will be finished, the "demo" label still looks stupid. Maybe someone could add the "Battle of the line" singe mission at the end to wrap that campaign off ;)?

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To do anything else would throw off the balance and agreements of the team members, both new and old.

Okay, so there was some kind of conflict behind all of this that I didn't know about. Still I would suggest that you make a simple installer for Zathras 2.0 because right now it looks amateurish compared to the TBP and seeing that this is the living future of the mod it shouldn't be that way :)!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 03:52:14 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Ah, so I remembered right about that :). Maybe it would be possible to fix the location issue and make the flash effect more similar to the show at the same time by only having it for a second when the point opens and as well when a ship enters and then remove it immediately before anyone notices it's not placed correctly?
As I said, to make any changes to where the effect occurs and how it moves, you'll either need to get an SCP coder to make some improvements to the game engine, or perhaps learn to do some LUA scripting.  As I myself can't script, I don't know if it is indeed possible via this method, but as there are no (to my knowledge) LUA coders on the team, the odds of this happening for the time being are quite low.

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That may be possible, but this is not how it was shown on the show. I remember a scene where Star Furies were training to quickly thrust up to avoid Centauri fire. So could the power of these directional thrusts be increased?
You are free to create a .tbm file and alter a fighter's secondary thrust speeds, but if this were to be done game-wide, it would off-balance all the existing missions and campaigns, which are play-balanced to the existing flight model.  On the same vein, B5 uses true Newtonian physics, while the FS2 engine doesn't.  There are ways of altering the flight model with side-thrust, glide, and momentum dampening, to approach that kind of effect, but never quite reach it.  As I said above, it would need some rebalancing which is quite a lot of work.  Perhaps, at some point in the future, if/when a major upgrade to Zathras is at hand and the missions need to be rebalanced anyway, you may convince the team to make this kind of change, but not now.

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Cool, I'll try that next! But as I wrote, I had to disable Zathras to not loose my pilot status. BTW, I just played the fascinating "Dark Children" campaign and now I can't seem to get back to the other campaigns in the Simulator Missions window. Is this a bug with that campaign or do I miss a special key or a hidden place to click into?
I haven't played that campaign... sorry.  Perhaps you need to go back to the campaign screen.  In regards to old pilots and Zathras compatibility, it probably comes down to Zathas requiring an Inferno build of SCP.  And, to answer the inevitable question, Inferno builds were created some time ago to support the Inferno campaign, which had so many ships and weapons, that it exceeded the limitations of regular SCP builds.  At that point though, Inferno builds would not work in multi-player so it was only adopted for specialized purposes.  More recently however, Inferno builds have been made to work with multi-player.  Unfortunately, it won't work with older pilots... which  is the only drawback.  From now on, whenever the SCP team releases its trunk builds, they are only in Inferno builds, so it can say that this represents the future of the SCP.  You may want to consider cutting your losses and switching to Inferno builds, or risk being left in the dust by new features.

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Hm, it was a long time ago but I think it was at least as long as "Dark Children". Even if there isn't a chance that it will be finished, the "demo" label still looks stupid. Maybe someone could add the "Battle of the line" singe mission at the end to wrap that campaign off ;)?
Hey, if you want to do it yourself, go ahead, but the team has other more pressing campaigns to work on, such as the Earth Alliance Civil War campaign.

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Okay, so there was some kind of conflict behind all of this that I didn't know about. Still I would suggest that you make a simple installer for Zathras 2.0 because right now it looks amateurish compared to the TBP and seeing that this is the living future of the mod it shouldn't be that way :)!
I do agree that having it all in a single VP would be somewhat more simple for the end user, but there are other reasons to keep them separate.  First of all, is it allows the individual members to work on their own parts of the mod, then easily bundle them together.  Secondly, it ever you need to turn off something, say perhaps you need to disable some more memory-intensive visual effects, you need but to remove one of the VPs and it all works.  Perhaps I'll volunteer to repackage it all when 2.0 is final... I said "perhaps"  ;) .
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Offline wesp5

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As I said, to make any changes to where the effect occurs and how it moves, you'll either need to get an SCP coder to make some improvements to the game engine, or perhaps learn to do some LUA scripting.

Oh, I thought you said in your last post that you yourself added the effect to TBP so I assumed you may be able to change it's placement as well. Is this some cycling sprite or how is it done anyway?

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You are free to create a .tbm file and alter a fighter's secondary thrust speeds, but if this were to be done game-wide, it would off-balance all the existing missions and campaigns, which are play-balanced to the existing flight model.

Okay, it was only a suggestion ;). I recently translated the Russian FPS/RPG/Spacesim hybrid "The Precursors" and noticed that they just transfered the usual FPS slide into space and it works like a charm for gliding!

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I haven't played that campaign... sorry.  Perhaps you need to go back to the campaign screen.

Oops, you were right. But if you didn't play that campaign, you should! It's amazing to fly a Shadow fighter using a new slow-motion feature on top. It's only five missions long, but even includes some famous ones from the show!

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Hey, if you want to do it yourself, go ahead, but the team has other more pressing campaigns to work on, such as the Earth Alliance Civil War campaign.

Sorry, I have no knowledge about modding Freescape. But maybe I'll replay that campaign again to see how short or long it actually is, my mind may have playing tricks on me about it's length...

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First of all, is it allows the individual members to work on their own parts of the mod, then easily bundle them together.  Secondly, it ever you need to turn off something, say perhaps you need to disable some more memory-intensive visual effects, you need but to remove one of the VPs and it all works.

Maybe for the DVD 2.0 an installer can be used where you can select which mods you want to install. This is the way I'm doing it in my Unofficial Patch for Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines using the free InnoSetup tool :)!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 02:47:41 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Oh, I thought you said in your last post that you yourself added the effect to TBP so I assumed you may be able to change it's placement as well. Is this some cycling sprite or how is it done anyway?
Its really just a static effect, similar to a weapon effect, but the bit of code causes it to be flash with that expanding cone effect.  A coder called Bobbeau created both the code and the static effect, which I inserted into the TBP's effect package and enabled the flash with the launcher flag.  I didn't create it, I just made use of it for TBP.

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Oops, you were right. But if you didn't play that campaign, you should! It's amazing to fly a Shadow fighter using a new slow-motion feature on top. It's only five missions long, but even includes some famous ones from the show!
I'm mostly inactive right now.  I haven't played even FS2 for a few years now, due to RL issues... mainly having a 2-year old girl who would just love to turn my Saitek X52 into an expensive paper-weight.  On top of that, I've got to keep my attention focused on her, lest she get into something that she shouldn't.  FS2 is just too absorbing of a game.  By the evening rolls around and she's in bed, I'm just too tired to play FS2.  I may get a house in the nebulous near-future, which could allow me to put the computer in a secured room, so I can leave the stick connected.  Also as she gets older, she should require less supervision, which could conceivably give me the opportunity to play.

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Maybe for the DVD 2.0 an installer can be used where you can select which mods you want to install.
Well, that's more up to the ACTIVE team members, so I can't speak for the future of THAT aspect.
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Offline wesp5

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A coder called Bobbeau created both the code and the static effect, which I inserted into the TBP's effect package and enabled the flash with the launcher flag.  I didn't create it, I just made use of it for TBP.

I noticed that the flash is at the same position where the appearing ships enter, so maybe the whole cone should be moved back to fix this issue. Would something like this bepossible by adding a coordinate offset?

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I'm mostly inactive right now.  I haven't played even FS2 for a few years now, due to RL issues... mainly having a 2-year old girl who would just love to turn my Saitek X52 into an expensive paper-weight.

You must be a lucky guy :)!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 02:41:22 pm by wesp5 »

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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I noticed that the flash is at the same position where the appearing ships enter, so maybe the whole cone should be moved back to fix this issue. Would something like this be possible by adding a small coordinate offset?
Possibly, but someone would need to create a new jump cone model for that, and there's still to guarantee that it would work as advertised.
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Offline wesp5

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Possibly, but someone would need to create a new jump cone model for that, and there's still to guarantee that it would work as advertised.

I looked at it some more and it's not easy because the cone expands and contracts back and forth from the flash and the ships appear out of it in the middle. If the flash would be at the end of the cone it wouldn't work that way and if the ships would appear at the end of the cone the larger ones would stick out. I don't know if it would even be possible to have the flash appear at another place than where the ships enter and leave...

 

Offline wesp5

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Another update: Has anyone tried to change the jumppoint conus so it doesn't turns flat and long behind the flash but stays at the same degree? This may look better from the side although it needs to be tested on how it looks from the front. Any suggstions on how to change that model for testing purposes?

 

Offline Slasher

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Do you mean a flat, 2D jump effect as opposed to the 3D cone shaped one now?  That's actually how the mod worked until Release 3, I believe.  We're talking 2001-2005, so the current effect has been in use for a while now.  You can enable the old effect/disable the new one by unchecking the "Enable 3d warp" box under the Features tab in the Launcher.  Go to "Gameplay" in the "List type" field and you'll see the checkbox near the bottom. 

Unfortunately, it's probably impossible for us to get an accurate recreation of what you see in the show without some significant code changes.


 

Offline wesp5

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Do you mean a flat, 2D jump effect as opposed to the 3D cone shaped one now?

No, although I might look at that one. What I meant was that the jump point looks like this from the side:

   \               and it might look better from the side like this       \
    *>>>       (* is the flash and where the ships appear)            *
   /                                                                                   /

Right now there are two different angles involved in the cone and I don't think it was like that in the show. But maybe it would look too short inside a jump gate otherwise or it would look bad from the front. Only testing it out could show it, but I don't even know what model is used and how this could be edited...

On a positive note, I played around with the directional trusts some more and noticed they work fine if you activate them for a longer time, which is great :)!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 01:04:00 pm by wesp5 »

  

Offline Slasher

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There's this...

...and then there's this...



 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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I wonder if something as simple as offsetting the center of the pof would work.  Of course even if it did that would break every mission with jumpgates or special warps due to the moving of the effect so it's really not a solution. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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I had a thought of how to fix the transparent aspect of the conical jump point.  The problem is that the existing one is single-sided, with the effect rendered on the inside of the model, so from the outside you can see through to the inside.  If a new cone were to be made with both an inner and outer surface, it should eliminate this.
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