[General Battuta]

Bear in mind the Hecate's BGreen is one of the ****tiest beam mounts ever. It's ridiculously absurdly easy to take out.

When you look at it that way, the Ravana's main beam mounts are equally ****ty.

They're not, though - they're actually pretty small even if they're fragile. The Hecate's BGreen is literally a gigantic bullseye. A single fighter with Tempests could take it out in a couple seconds.

[TrashMan]

The Hecate entered service before the Second Shivan Incursion.  Before the Second Shivan Incursion, the only Shivan ship to have beam weaponry was the Lucifer.  There were no Liliths with inconveniently painful LReds to worry about.

That is flawed thinking...taking an enemy as completely static.
The GTVA knew shivans had beam technology. After all, the Lucy had it. They just assumed the shivies will never install them on anything else, which is just daft.

[Scotty]

You don't know that they did assume that.  Hell, that's probably why nobody was too surprised about beam weapons on Shivan ships in general when they showed up again.  What they didn't assume, and what I'm prepared to excuse them for not considering, is a cruiser that mounts a beam cannon several times more powerful than the Lucifer's.

[Lucika]

You don't know that they did assume that.  Hell, that's probably why nobody was too surprised about beam weapons on Shivan ships in general when they showed up again.  What they didn't assume, and what I'm prepared to excuse them for not considering, is a cruiser that mounts a beam cannon several times more powerful than the Lucifer's.

In a sense, even THAT counts as 'taking an enemy as completely static'.

[Kosh]

Having specialized carriers frees up a lot more space on destroyers to make them much more heavily armed and armored than they would otherwise be without being weighed down with fighter and bomber wings. This way destoyers become much more direct threats than they otherwise would be. Having big fighterbays forced the Orion and Hatshepsut destroyers to make major trade offs in their designs, such as a near total lack of anti-fighter weaponry on the Orion.

[General Battuta]

Having specialized carriers frees up a lot more space on destroyers to make them much more heavily armed and armored than they would otherwise be without being weighed down with fighter and bomber wings. This way destoyers become much more direct threats than they otherwise would be. Having big fighterbays forced the Orion and Hatshepsut destroyers to make major trade offs in their designs, such as a near total lack of anti-fighter weaponry on the Orion.

But that's not helpful if the carriers can't conduct flight ops because they're being chased around by corvettes. There's real value to a hybrid design.

I think the Orion had so few turrets because it's from FS1. And while the Hatshepsut probably has flaws, isn't it considered one of the better (best) canon GTVA destroyers?

[NGTM-1R]

Having big fighterbays forced the Orion and Hatshepsut destroyers to make major trade offs in their designs, such as a near total lack of anti-fighter weaponry on the Orion.

That's not even a trade-off. You have fighters available for defense, you use them. The Orion may place more faith in its fightercraft to defend it, but that's the stronger system. And an Orion is better-designed to allow escorting fighters to defend it as well, compared to the Hecate's tendency towards giant rambling superstructures.

[Solatar]

The Orion was also designed and put into service before Tsunami and Harbinger strength bombs and shields.  It simply didn't need super-advanced anti-fighter weaponry to deal with hostiles, fighters were a GREAT deterrent.

[Kosh]

But that's not helpful if the carriers can't conduct flight ops because they're being chased around by corvettes.

Carriers shouldn't be left alone.

That's not even a trade-off. You have fighters available for defense, you use them. The Orion may place more faith in its fightercraft to defend it, but that's the stronger system. And an Orion is better-designed to allow escorting fighters to defend it as well, compared to the Hecate's tendency towards giant rambling superstructures.

And the result was multiple Orions were lost to bomber strikes in the Great War.

The Orion was also designed and put into service before Tsunami and Harbinger strength bombs and shields.  It simply didn't need super-advanced anti-fighter weaponry to deal with hostiles, fighters were a GREAT deterrent.

That was probably true for most of the TV war, but in the last couple of years of that war it was starting to show the strain.

The Amun is the Vasudans' heaviest bomber class ship. It carries a massive payload and has been responsible for the destruction of at least 3 Orion-class destroyers in the past 2 years. Fortunately, it is slow and has low maneuverability, making it an easy target for our fighters. Fighter pilots should be wary of the two turrets on this ship: they are not to be ignored.

Even though those losses were spread out over two years, given that they have the main C&C facilities of the fleet and the resources that go into building them, that's still a major toll. And this was before shields and powerful bombs.

[General Battuta]

But that's not helpful if the carriers can't conduct flight ops because they're being chased around by corvettes.

Carriers shouldn't be left alone.

Now you're arguing against canon, because the Hecates are, over and over again.

[Kosh]

Just because they shouldn't be left alone doesn't mean that they are anyway.

[General Battuta]

Just because they shouldn't be left alone doesn't mean that they are anyway.

Yeah but if the GTVA for some reason needs to deploy its destroyers alone presumably it does so for a reason, and thus it's a good idea for them to be able to defend themselves.

[Kosh]

Perhaps they were left alone because command greatly overestimated the Hecate's ability to defend itself. While it does have at least some potential in an offensive role, in defence it is sorely lacking.

[Flipside]

In fairness, I seem to recall that frequently stated that it was problems with their hardware, not the Shivan's that meant there were no Beam Weapons in the first war, I think the lack of surprise exhibited in FS2 when they had them was meant to emphasise that.

As for the Hecate, I wonder if the development of the Colossus meant that it didn't get the respect it deserved on the drawing board? Maybe it was simply used as a testbed for the technologies that would later be incorporated onto the Big C. only larger?

[Dilmah G]

Well, I guess you have to appreciate it in context. There are a few things to keep in mind.

A) Between the two incursions, it was highly unlikely the GTVA engaged any remotely decent hostile forces (excluding the NTF), and thus, the Hecates wouldn't have been battle-tested.

B) Leading on, IIRC, the Hecate was new around the time of FS2. This would've meant it probably wouldn't have been involved in any exercises prior to being deployed, and as such, the higher ups wouldn't have had a chance to properly evaluate the Hecate in the field and remodel their strategy around it. In particular, the protection it needed.

C) As far as the GTVA knew, the Shivans still used their FS1 era craft. Apart from a Lucifer, the Hecate probably would've been able to make short work of most Shivan vessels. Given the information the GTVA had when designing the Hecate (which was probably prior even to the NTF insurgency), it was decent IMO.

Its defensive layout on the other hand is just inexcusable. The designers had rocks in their head or placed *a lot* of faith in the fighter pilots, but you can do that when you design the ship to have a massive CAW.

[headdie]

B) Leading on, IIRC, the Hecate was new around the time of FS2. This would've meant it probably wouldn't have been involved in any exercises prior to being deployed, and as such, the higher ups wouldn't have had a chance to properly evaluate the Hecate in the field and remodel their strategy around it. In particular, the protection it needed.

C) As far as the GTVA knew, the Shivans still used their FS1 era craft. Apart from a Lucifer, the Hecate probably would've been able to make short work of most Shivan vessels. Given the information the GTVA had when designing the Hecate (which was probably prior even to the NTF insurgency), it was decent IMO.

on point B by the time the nebula swung round the GTVA had been warring with the ntf fo a year and a half and I simply cannot believe the Aquitane was the first Hecate to be deployed in that time so command should have been aware of the vulnerability of the class and have developed deployment patterns to reduce the danger to a resource of that tactical importance.

and point C would be plain idiotic and short sighted, why would command assume the shivans wouldn't seek to improve their fleet, either by new technology or better design and 30 years a lot of time, just look at the differences between the fleets of FS1 and 2 prior to the shivan encounter

[jr2]

Just because they shouldn't be left alone doesn't mean that they are anyway.

Like the B-17 in World War II.  It had self-defense turrets, etc... it's a "Flying Fortress!"

Since the airfield bombings were not appreciably reducing German fighter strength, additional B-17 groups were formed, and Eaker ordered major missions deeper into Germany against important industrial targets. The 8th Air Force then targeted the ball-bearing factories in Schweinfurt, hoping to cripple the war effort there. The first raid on 17 August 1943 did not result in critical damage to the factories, with the 230 attacking B-17s being intercepted by an estimated 300 Luftwaffe fighters. The Germans shot down 36 aircraft with the loss of 200 men, and coupled with a raid earlier in the day against Regensburg, a total of 60 B-17s were lost that day.[55]

A second attempt on Schweinfurt on 14 October 1943 would later come to be known as "Black Thursday".[56] While the attack was successful at disrupting the entire works, severely curtailing work there for the remainder of the war, it was at an extreme cost.[57] Of the 291 attacking Fortresses, 60 were shot down over Germany, five crashed on approach to Britain, and 12 more were scrapped due to damage – a total loss of 77 B-17s.[58] One hundred and twenty-two bombers were damaged and needed repairs before their next flight. Out of 2,900 men in the crews, about 650 men did not return, although some survived as prisoners of war. Only 33 bombers landed without damage.[/i] These losses were a result of concentrated attacks by over 300 German fighters.[59]

Such high losses of air crews could not be sustained, and the USAAF, recognizing the vulnerability of heavy bombers to interceptors when operating alone, suspended daylight bomber raids deep into Germany until the development of an escort fighter that could protect the bombers all the way from the United Kingdom to Germany and back.

EDIT:  Oh, and the carrier thing: (they think the same thing about current carriers, though I don't think they propose going back to battleships!)

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-01/fortress-sea-carrier-invulnerability-myth

[Marcov]

Hecates are probably the product of a modern idea of Terran weapons analysts. As time went on, they discovered that BOMBERS are the real capship killers (imagine being able to decimate an entire destroyer with just a squad of heavy bombers in a minute or less?). 3 points:

1. Hecates obviously have a larger fighter/bomber capacity than the Orion (having multiple hangars)

2. Less beams, sacrificed for more anti-bomber weaponry.

3. An extremely complicated design, possibly to confuse enemies if they dare dogfight near it (I've recalled chasing Shivan fighters through the Aquitaine's superstructures and stuff...also give credit to it for damaging Shivan fighters clumsy enough to collide in its confusing maze).

In short, it's a "Bombers are the greatest threat nowadays, so we'll try as much to crush them and as much to carry out bombers vs. the enemy" mentality from the Terrans, that idealized the construction of the Hecate destroyer (or "Carrier", as many would stereotype it).

[Scotty]

There are entirely too many anti-fighter blindspots for that to make sense.  Mostly due to the complicated superstructure creating those blind spots.

[Qent]

Fortunately the Hecate can shoot through its hull.