[General Battuta]

Sure, but if the argument here is Hecate vs. Orion or Hecate vs. Hattie, those ships could get an LRBGreen or, uh, LRBVas ( ) just as easily.

Sure, a long-range weapon would help the Hecate seem a bit less silly (and hey, she's got one in...every mission I've used her in, I think) but it is ultimately a non-canon thing.

[TrashMan]

You see, it takes TIME for an entire destroyer to be repaired; remember that the Colossus took several months to repair by losing only about 20% of its hull integrity. It'd take only a short amount of time to repair several bombers.

Didn't the Collie also melt a lot of it's internal systems?
Regarding repair speed - sadly the game is inconsistent in this. We see damaged ships appear in the next mission fully repaired (or partially repaired).
Of course, it is only logical to assume that bigger repairs take quite some time - at least weeks. But again, it depends on the technology, manpower, urgency.

But the big difference is that a carrier relies on not being detected - something that can never be taken for guaranteed.

[TrashMan]

Because, y'know, you don't play on insane, and their weapons are bad, and even with higher AI levels than their Terran counterparts they're still nowhere near a human (your skill), and you get to respawn when you die.

People fall for these illusions so easily.

And..you know. It's a game where you are a PILOT, so the AI and capships are made to be beatable.
Also, we do have your wingman commenting on just how many fighters/bombers shivans keep throwing at them, depsite looses.

Really, I don't see why a enemy must be superior to you in every way to be terrifiyng. Fear and horror can be achieved trough many subtler means too.

[Kosh]

Sure, but if the argument here is Hecate vs. Orion or Hecate vs. Hattie, those ships could get an LRBGreen or, uh, LRBVas ( ) just as easily.

Sure, a long-range weapon would help the Hecate seem a bit less silly (and hey, she's got one in...every mission I've used her in, I think) but it is ultimately a non-canon thing.

But it is a realistic possibility for a future upgrade. Non-canon isn't really the point.

[Snail]

I don't think you understand what's happening here. Snail's quoting a line from a silly little campaign in which a character casts an aspersion upon the Hecate's chin beam thing.

Actually I think that particular line was cut at some point. I'm not sure. But it was memorable enough in the beta.

[General Battuta]

I don't think you understand what's happening here. Snail's quoting a line from a silly little campaign in which a character casts an aspersion upon the Hecate's chin beam thing.

Actually I think that particular line was cut at some point. I'm not sure. But it was memorable enough in the beta.

Nowai it's totally in the

**** you might be right

Really, I don't see why a enemy must be superior to you in every way to be terrifiyng. Fear and horror can be achieved trough many subtler means too.

Arguable, but also tangential. The Shivans have better AI classes on average (or so I've seen/been told.) That means they fire their guns faster and turn faster relative to the base performance of their equipment.

[Dilmah G]

That's true about the Shivan AI classes, I recall, but Shivan craft were generally inferior weren't they? Weaker shields, lower hull integrity; they probably would've needed higher AI classes to be seen as a threat on lower difficulty levels.

Or is my memory playing tricks on me? Could've sworn craft like the Astaroth and the Manticore had paper thin shielding and hull. Different story for bombers, IIRC.

[General Battuta]

That's true about the Shivan AI classes, I recall, but Shivan craft were generally inferior weren't they? Weaker shields, lower hull integrity; they probably would've needed higher AI classes to be seen as a threat on lower difficulty levels.

Or is my memory playing tricks on me? Could've sworn craft like the Astaroth and the Manticore had paper thin shielding and hull. Different story for bombers, IIRC.

I think this has been addressed a few times in this thread already. It's also tangential; the issue here is the skill of Shivan pilots in raw performance terms. Planting them in a Terran or Vasudan ship would get better results vs. your average Terran or Vasudan pilot.

[Qent]

But since the player doesn't get to fly a "real" Shivan fighter, Shivans' pilot skill is nearly indistinguishable from their having less sucky equipment.

[Snail]

Shivan ships invariably have stronger shielding but lighter armor. Most Shivan fighters have a measley 100 hitpoints but even the Manticore has almost as much shielding as the Hercules.

(Dunno if is relevant. I is just saying the facts.)

[General Battuta]

But since the player doesn't get to fly a "real" Shivan fighter, Shivans' pilot skill is nearly indistinguishable from their having less sucky equipment.

This is true, but again, separate from the issue of pure pilot skill.

[NGTM-1R]

This is true, but again, separate from the issue of pure pilot skill.

Is it? Anything that's not directly presented in the game when played is at best a form of deutrocanon. If you have to open the mission file to figure it out, that makes it somewhat suspect as a real effort by to say something.

[Hades]

Shivan ships invariably have stronger shielding but lighter armor. Most Shivan fighters have a measley 100 hitpoints but even the Manticore has almost as much shielding as the Hercules.

(Dunno if is relevant. I is just saying the facts.)

Yeah, like how the Dragon has 100 hit points but 700 shields (and it's 12.6 meters long with 5 primary points).

[General Battuta]

This is true, but again, separate from the issue of pure pilot skill.

Is it? Anything that's not directly presented in the game when played is at best a form of deutrocanon. If you have to open the mission file to figure it out, that makes it somewhat suspect as a real effort by to say something.

Oh, okay, so the Prom R is actually a little more powerful than the Kayser, right? Because it's never directly presented in the game. I mean, it has observable empirical properties apparent in the game, but you'd have to open a table to figure them out.

Oh wait. The fire rate and turn rate of Shivan ships is directly presented in the game. So by your own definition, solid canon. If you're going to come back with 'this doesn't equal pilot skill', sure, but transplant those Shivan pilots onto Terran ships and they will behave exactly the same way in the same situations except that they will turn and shoot faster.

The gymnastics are amusing but ultimately just gymnastics.

[NGTM-1R]

Oh, okay, so the Prom R is actually a little more powerful than the Kayser, right? Because it's never directly presented in the game. I mean, it has observable empirical properties apparent in the game, but you'd have to open a table to figure them out.

No you don't. You use both weapons at once and it becomes rapidly obvious which is superior. You could conduct empirical testing on the matter without referring to FRED since the player has a choice of armaments.

Oh wait. The fire rate and turn rate of Shivan ships is directly presented in the game.

But there is no way to conduct empirical testing on it without reference to FRED. It's not possible to separate performance of ship and pilot without recourse to exterior sources because you cannot control such ships yourself to see what their maneuver limits are nor can you accurately assess which Shivan pilots are better or worse than others. At the very least, they're going to be attacking you. That makes observational evidence very dubious.

You can do it however you like, but since you never personally fly a Shivan ship or fire a Shivan weapon, without recourse to the tables or FRED you don't know what the basic limitations on them are so you can never assess how well they're being used. Without consulting the tables you can't even know if the AI is actually being gimped down from what it's at when played on Insane  or whether Insane is actually it being buffed from norms established at Very Easy. There is no way to simply play FreeSpace or FreeSpace 2, alone, and accurately assess the capabilities of Shivan fighters. At best, you can talk about how they perform at a certain difficulty level. That doesn't tell you anything about how they're meant to be. You want to figure that out, you have to crack open the table files. And gameplay will always represent a higher form of canonicity for a game.

If anything, it seems more likely intended us to walk away with the impression all Shivan pilots are idiots, based on Into The Lion's Den and what you accomplish using one of their ships. (Or alternately, that Shivan pilots are all gods, based on Playing Judas.)

[General Battuta]

*beautiful vault*

10 points from the Russian judge!

And gameplay will always represent a higher form of canonicity for a game.

This is my take on it. If it happens in-game it is canon (within reason.) I guess we just disagree, which is fair.

If anything, it seems more likely intended us to walk away with the impression all Shivan pilots are idiots, based on Into The Lion's Den and what you accomplish using one of their ships. (Or alternately, that Shivan pilots are all gods, based on Playing Judas.)

my opinion is that this would make me enjoy the setting approximately 587 times less

[TrashMan]

I think this has been addressed a few times in this thread already. It's also tangential; the issue here is the skill of Shivan pilots in raw performance terms. Planting them in a Terran or Vasudan ship would get better results vs. your average Terran or Vasudan pilot.

This is irrevelant.

In gameplay, one does get no "feel" of their superiority.

The story or the characters never mention int - in fact, they way they talk implies the opposite.

So a setting in FRED has little relevance (and it might have been a last minute change because the game was too easy, for all we know). There is a reason 99% of people will think them as inferior pilots - because they come off that way. If [V] wanted them to seem more dangerous pilots, they could have pulled it off.

my opinion is that this would make me enjoy the setting approximately 587 times less

And for other people it would have no effect or would make them enjoy the setting 600 times more.

Either way - back to the original topic. The Hecate!

[Dilmah G]

my opinion is that this would make me enjoy the setting approximately 587 times less

Oh, pfft.

What's a good (generally story driven) combat sim without the hilariously overblown masculine overtones and tight fitting flying suits with ridiculous callsigns?!

I'm tempted to say politically correct, but I've recently been told saying something is politically correct is politically incorrect, so there you go.

Also, if anyone would be interested in doing a Freespace beach volleyball scene, I would totally support you.

[General Battuta]

I think this has been addressed a few times in this thread already. It's also tangential; the issue here is the skill of Shivan pilots in raw performance terms. Planting them in a Terran or Vasudan ship would get better results vs. your average Terran or Vasudan pilot.

This is irrevelant.

In gameplay, one does get no "feel" of their superiority.

The story or the characters never mention int - in fact, they way they talk implies the opposite.

So a setting in FRED has little relevance (and it might have been a last minute change because the game was too easy, for all we know). There is a reason 99% of people will think them as inferior pilots - because they come off that way.

Because their guns suck, and they don't respawn when they're dead like you do, and you have magical damage buffers.  

The games are all about how the Shivans are freaky. 'Lion at the Door', whatnot.

If [V] wanted them to seem more dangerous pilots, they could have pulled it off.

And they did, because the Shivans turn and shoot faster!

And for other people it would have no effect or would make them enjoy the setting 600 times more.

I don't care about them!

I'm tempted to say politically correct, but I've recently been told saying something is politically correct is politically correct, so there you go.

fixed

[Dilmah G]

I'm tempted to say politically correct, but I've recently been told saying something is politically correct is politically correct, so there you go.

fixed

That's just as bad!