[Droid803]

Wait wait, you'd play the weakness of Shivan fighter primaries on technological inferiority rather than piloting skill?
I've always thought that Shivans were scary due to their technological superiority, and that the pilot commenting on the shivans being scary in a lion at the door was commenting on how the Astaroths and Maras can run rings around a Herc 2.

There's nothing about them being good pilots, if anything they're poor pilots cause they do ****ty damage (hey, Shivan weapon tech is supposed to be awesome canon-wise, something worth copying, look at the Kayser), and the their improved turn rate and faster fire rate is due to their better ships.

But, that is another story. This thread is about the goddamn HECATE.

[NGTM-1R]

You can always have it both ways. The Kayser is demonstrably superior to Shivan tech. I think I once theorized that it's because the Shivans build things based on very powerful principles but then don't bother to refine it. The raw technology is very advanced, but it's not been developed to potential so you end up with early firearms vs. longbows.

[General Battuta]

If you put an average Shivan pilot in a Terran/Vasudan ship, it would turn faster and shoot faster (and more accurately) than with an average Terran or Vasudan.

Pretty telling.

[Droid803]

How would you know that?
Based of AI Classes in FRED?

Cause there's nothing in gameplay that dictates that the faster turning and faster shooting is because of better pilots. It could just be a better control interface in the ship, for instance. You can't tell from just gameplay, and looking at AI classes in FRED isn't really telling of actual pilot skill cause it could be used to represent a variety of things.

A Shivan has never piloted a Terran/Vasudan fighter, but the opposite has happened, and Terrans wipe the floor with Shivans in Shivan craft, witness Into the Lions Den. Four fighters go in deep into hostile territory, kill like fifty fighters, take out what appears to be pretty important infrastructure, and gets back out without a single loss.

Pretty telling.

[General Battuta]

I disagree!

[Droid803]

Very well.

[Hades]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE HECATE, SO

Aren't those elephant ears the ugliest thing? 

[TrashMan]

It was, in fact. It's an agreement to disagree because neither of us is going to budge. A mature solution, rather than wasting gallons of fingersweat yelling.

True. I ain't going to budge...not when there's so much going for my case.

you think all that matter is the AI setting in FRED.

I think the fluff and how it comes off is more important. And fluff and actual gameplay can sometimes clash. Fluff wise, shivans are technology superior (yet when you compare the fighters and weapons, they really aren't), and since we never hear of shivan superior piloting skills (fluff-wise) and 99% of the people would tell you they think shivans are inferior (because they come off as such)....Well, let's just say I consider there is no debate to be had here, because it's awfully one-sided.

[SypheDMar]

I think that fluff is extremely important when it comes to the stuff that happens in-universe, including cases regarding the the Hecate. If Shivans have terrible pilots, so do the NTF and the Vasudans, as all of them are a joke compared to whoever you're fighting at the time. As such, using AI as an excuse is faulty. The GTVA developed the Kayser based on Shivan technology, so even if the Shivans' had weaker primaries, it couldn't have been that much worse than the Kayser, and, in fact, they were probably better.

This is where most disagreements may occur: Fluff is more important than anything when it comes to how the universe in FreeSpace works. The Shivans are scary, evil, and high-tech. They blow stuff up quick, and they make short work of capital ships. Also, the Hecate is better than the Orion. Although in-game, this may not seem to be the case, the briefings and tech description make says so. I'm making an assumption that balance and past limitations prevent the Hecate from being shown as a better destroyer in-game. Based on the thread showing the Hecate with many turrets on the animation, the Hecate would have more guns than what is shown in-game.

On the ear comment: If the game had different damages for different parts of the ship (like an FPS), I would assume that they act as shields to attempt to prevent holes being blown like the GTD Legion, though they look like they are there to prevent smaller stuff from breaking through sensitive stuff- something the Orions don't have.

[General Battuta]

I want to play this



not this



and that's basically the extent of my feelings on the topic.

It was, in fact. It's an agreement to disagree because neither of us is going to budge. A mature solution, rather than wasting gallons of fingersweat yelling.

True. I ain't going to budge...not when there's so much going for my case.

you think all that matter is the AI setting in FRED.

I think the fluff and how it comes off is more important. And fluff and actual gameplay can sometimes clash. Fluff wise, shivans are technology superior (yet when you compare the fighters and weapons, they really aren't), and since we never hear of shivan superior piloting skills (fluff-wise) and 99% of the people would tell you they think shivans are inferior (because they come off as such)....Well, let's just say I consider there is no debate to be had here, because it's awfully one-sided.

C'mon, we were getting along so well. Can we just agree to disagree instead of playing 'sure...but I'm right?'

[NGTM-1R]

It's Trashman, he can't.

[The E]

*sigh*

Guys...... not again, please.

[NGTM-1R]

*sigh*

Guys...... not again, please.

Hey, if for some reason it's not allowed to debate with the man, that's a problem with him.

[Dilmah G]

*sigh*

Guys...... not again, please.

What he said.

[Marcov]

Sadly, the big problem that keeps this offtopic discussion ongoing is that :Volition: didn't care so much about realism. Let's list down some stuff:

-Destroyers have 17-26 turrets, which is awfully sparse for their size. WWII Battleships themselves carry more than a hundred AA turrets (if I'm not mistaken).

-Great-War era capships rely on blobs to take down fighters, which sucks A LOT in FS2 now that we have shields. And that's basically the reason why Orions simply haven't enough firepower to defend itself against Shivan bombers (recall Command having to summon 3 Aeolus cruisers to defend the Bastion in Capella).

-Destroyers move 25 meters per second. Hell, that shouldn't be the case. There isn't gravity in space and theoretically, your speed can multiply since there's no (or very little) outside forces that act upon you. In space.

-Destroyers carry slightly over 100 fighters and bombers. That's too little. Why not design a 2-kilometer battleship by yourself and slide a little hangar in? I tried doing that and got about at least 500 fighters and bombers (Freespace 2-sized ones).

-Harbingers are equal to 5000 megatons worth of explosives, while asteroids, not even that fast, can take down 8% of the Iceni's hull integrity which, based on the fluff, would be like a gigaton-scale bomb impacting the said ship.

-Shivans are said to be far more technologically advanced than the GTVA, when we see that only in Demons and Ravanas. Try flying an Orion against a Demon, and it'll take you sheer skill and luck to take down the enemy on broadside. At the same time, try single-handedly duelling a Shivan. Alpha One toasts the enemy in 3 seconds.

-  Etc.

Actually all what I said is offtopic, but my point is, Hecates are really more advanced than the Orion theoretically, but still not advanced (very big ship, wow, really giant ship, er...why's it so funny when it fires at me? I can kill this thing easily!)

Some guys think the Orion's better simply because it looks better (an armored brick-shaped citadel of immense capship power). But as I said, try making it fight a Demon. On the other hand, try making a Hecate deploy its bombers against the Demon. With some courage and skill they take down the damn capship killer.

[The E]

Sadly, the big problem that keeps this offtopic discussion ongoing is that :Volition: didn't care so much about realism. Let's list down some stuff:

-Destroyers have 17-26 turrets, which is awfully sparse for their size. WWII Battleships themselves carry more than a hundred AA turrets (if I'm not mistaken).

True for WW2.
Decidedly not true for later. Remember, the Iowa class got an upgrade for the Gulf War (AKA the last time anyone used a Battleship in real life), which replaced all those manned installations with 4 Phalanx CIWS. That's right. 4.

-Destroyers move 25 meters per second. Hell, that shouldn't be the case. There isn't gravity in space and theoretically, your speed can multiply since there's no (or very little) outside forces that act upon you. In space.

But as we all know, FS takes place in a luminiferous aether universe.

-Destroyers carry slightly over 100 fighters and bombers. That's too little. Why not design a 2-kilometer battleship by yourself and slide a little hangar in? I tried doing that and got about at least 500 fighters and bombers (Freespace 2-sized ones).

You. Designed a battleship.
Where's your ship-design degree?
Did you allocate enough space for engines, crew quarters, armament, armor, magazines, cargo bays?

-Shivans are said to be far more technologically advanced than the GTVA, when we see that only in Demons and Ravanas. Try flying an Orion against a Demon, and it'll take you sheer skill and luck to take down the enemy on broadside. At the same time, try single-handedly duelling a Shivan. Alpha One toasts the enemy in 3 seconds.

Your point being.....

-  Etc.

Yeah, no. That's not an argument. For Anything. Ever.

Actually all what I said is offtopic, but my point is, Hecates are really more advanced than the Orion theoretically, but still not advanced (very big ship, wow, really giant ship, er...why's it so funny when it fires at me? I can kill this thing easily!)

What are you trying to say here?

Some guys think the Orion's better simply because it looks better (an armored brick-shaped citadel of immense capship power). But as I said, try making it fight a Demon. On the other hand, try making a Hecate deploy its bombers against the Demon. With some courage and skill they take down the damn capship killer.

Umm. You don't get the point. The Orion, from a basic design POV, is a very good, highly defendable ship design. Its turrets are placed for optimal coverage, and it has very little in the way of true blind spots. Could its AAA armament be better? Of course.
The Hecate, on the other hand, with its weird design, is easier to take down because it can't defend itself well, and because its design make it harder for its escort fighters to fight around her. In addition, her anticap firepower is pityful, and easily taken down. Take all of that together, and ask yourself which ship you'd rather fly off of. An Orion, which needs some extra escorts to shoot down bombers and bombs, but can take care of most of the big stuff easily, or a Hecate, which needs protection from bombers on their way to this blind spot or that, AND other big ships at the same time?

[Marcov]

Firstly,

What are you trying to say here?

I was, though unstructuredly, trying to say that all these arguments were on the fluffy FS standards, which, like many sci-fi games tend to violate the rules of realism.

Secondly...

The Orion is as it is. Great-War era design. The GTVA didn't bother much to improve its AA armament to newer standards. That's as far as canon can get.

The Hecate, is as it is. It's a cross between carrier and battleship, as most of us look at it, but I believe it handles better as a carrier.

Umm. You don't get the point. The Orion, from a basic design POV, is a very good, highly defendable ship design. Its turrets are placed for optimal coverage, and it has very little in the way of true blind spots. Could its AAA armament be better? Of course.

Yes, I'd agree, it's highly defendable and all: but will it last long against Shivan destroyers? And bombers (without the goddamn Alpha 1 in action)?

The Hecate, on the other hand, with its weird design, is easier to take down because it can't defend itself well, and because its design make it harder for its escort fighters to fight around her. In addition, her anticap firepower is pityful, and easily taken down.

You could say that its anticap weaponry is pitiful, but it isn't designed for that, as I see it. It's designed to operate on search-and-destroy missions, were it wouldn't engage direct combat, but rather, deploy bombers to crush its enemies. Look back at "Slaying Ravana".

Take all of that together, and ask yourself which ship you'd rather fly off of.

I wouldn't fly off an Orion against a Demon.

An Orion, which needs some extra escorts to shoot down bombers and bombs, but can take care of most of the big stuff easily, or a Hecate, which needs protection from bombers on their way to this blind spot or that, AND other big ships at the same time?

Actually, this wouldn't be the case when handling Shivan destroyers. Basically I would rather send an elite bomber wing with fighter escort than an Orion with fighter escort to take them down. I wouldn't want to risk losing an entire flagship to some mission.

Also, I think I'm realizing that you're relying on big ships to handle big ships. Well, no. Especially against Shivans, who, apparently, have less dangerous anti-fighter/bomber armament than their GTVA counterparts. However, they handle big ships tragically with their LRed, which is far more efficient than the BGreen or the sucky TerSlash.

Would you rather send bombers and fighter escort against a Shivan destroyer, or an Orion with fighter escort (or even bomber escort) against a Shivan destroyer? Would you want to have the risk of losing a wing of bombers, or losing a destroyer? That's basically my point.

[General Battuta]

This is going to go productive places that will inform everybody of new things, isn't it?

[Qent]

"Slaying Ravana" is kind of a bad example; I hope you've tried it on insane. The Aquitaine sends in one wing of heavy bombers without escort to take out a destroyer with its weapon subsystem intact and plenty of interceptors still to defend it. Where are all those extra fighters that Hecates are supposed to have?

[Marcov]

Well, you could say that it's also one of the realism flaws FS has  .

Still, Command COULD send a wing or two of fighters to assist Alpha wing.