Author Topic: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology  (Read 7256 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
Fascinating. You'll often see arguments that women are biologically hardwired to seek out single stable mates, because they need loyal resource providers to keep them protected and fed while they raise kids. Men, conversely, are hardwired to try to spread their seed around but to jealously guard their own mates, to guarantee paternity. These evolutionary arguments are used to advance the notion that single-man-single-woman marriage is 'natural', part of our biological predisposition, and that women desire single powerful men while men desire many attractive women.

The cultures of the ancient Amazon defy these claims. Polyandry was the norm, with each wife having multiple husbands and the children being raised collectively. Each child, of course, still only had one male and female parent, but the society didn't think so; they believed in partible paternity, where the child developed from the accretion of multiple fathers' sperm.

Even on the biological level this setup is viable - sperm competition will produce healthier offspring (one of the main drivers behind female promiscuity in most species.)

This social setup seemed to work well with their harsh warrior culture. Women and men alike benefited: women had replacements to step up if a given husband died, and the men built solidarity and friendships over shared wives. Children had a whole network of dads to support them into adulthood. The sex was also probably pretty wild.

Alien to us, but illuminating (to me) as an SF writer - it shows how cultures might develop differently.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 02:02:24 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
seems like polyandry would be really inefficient for keep population numbers up
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
Sperm competition is only a valid point if copulation is immediately sequential. I don't know if that's what they did, but it seems a little odd to me.
seems like polyandry would be really inefficient for keep population numbers up

Not true in this case, since people of either gender were shared around. As long as you've maxed out the number of gestating females, your rate of reproduction cannot get higher, and it doesn't seem like the Amazonian way would have a lower frequency of pregnancies. Actually, limited/unlimited pairings and all that have no direct effect as long as you max out your capacities, but might have some indirect ones that take some thought to discover.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 02:47:40 pm by Kolgena »

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
Ohhh.. I was thinking polyandry as, like, a group of males were all exclusive to one female. Which would leave some females without partners. I didn't actually read the article. :P
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
women are pylons, if you want to raise the pop cap you must construct additional

 

Offline Mr. Vega

  • Your Node Is Mine
  • 28
  • The ticket to the future is always blank
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
There are many ways to justify monogamy. That it's what were "supposed" to do biologically doesn't have to be one of them.

And in this case, biology does matter - but sometimes culture matters more.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
There are many ways to justify monogamy. That it's what were "supposed" to do biologically doesn't have to be one of them.

And in this case, biology does matter - but sometimes culture matters more.

This isn't an argument against monogamy. I like monogamy. I don't think I could handle a non-monogamous relationship. But it helps me write non-monogamous societies with confidence.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

  • Your Node Is Mine
  • 28
  • The ticket to the future is always blank
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
I know I know. My point was only that the explanation for the existence of non-monogamous societies doesn't have to disprove the idea that the natural biological inclination of humans is toward monogamy, because that train of logic greatly underestimates the power of culture to change behavior.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 04:37:58 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
I question the notion of any strongly determinate natural biological inclination. I would be more open to biological factors shaping the probability distribution of emerging social mating patterns in combination with other factors (environment, chance, whatnot.)

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
anthropology: the only science where they go 2% of the population does not act a particular way, therefore the whole must not have a disposition to act that way.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
anthropology: the only science where they go 2% of the population does not act a particular way, therefore the whole must not have a disposition to act that way.

40-70% of the population actually practiced multiple paternity. With no significant genetic skew this cannot be due to a biological gap.

QED'd'd'd'd'd'd

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
you mean 40-70% of the sample.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
you mean 40-70% of the sample.

No. A sample is selected from a population. The statistics here are about the Amazon population as a whole.

Without genetic difference from other populations the causative factor must be cultural.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
cultural factors can override biological ones, this does not mean that biological factors do not exist.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
cultural factors can override biological ones, this does not mean that biological factors do not exist.

No one has argued that they do.

 

Offline BloodEagle

  • 210
  • Bleeding Paradox!
    • Steam
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
cultural factors can override biological ones, this does not mean that biological factors do not exist.

No one has argued that they do.

I hate you all.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
cultural factors can override biological ones, this does not mean that biological factors do not exist.

No one has argued that they do.

I hate you all.

No one has argued that biological factors don't exist, is what I was going for.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
ok, so the next step of this would be; just because cultural influences in a region caused a particular behavior does not mean that there are not biological influences that are in opposition to that behavior.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
ok, so the next step of this would be; just because cultural influences in a region caused a particular behavior does not mean that there are not biological influences that are in opposition to that behavior.

Sure. Not in conflict with any points made here.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Children with multiple fathers: why monogamy isn't biology
so, therefore, just because ancient amazon tribes have a practice of polyandry does not disprove (or even strongly indicate away from) a biological disposition toward polygyny or monogamy.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together