Author Topic: Getting tired of gaming?  (Read 21027 times)

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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
As for video games, if you get tired of playing them then build them. Modding provides an something engaging that playing them doesn't.
Not to de(re?)-rail the current topic, but while that's certainly an option for creative types, keep in mind that there are many of us out there who are simply not. :p I know I'd never be able to put together a coherent mod of anything myself.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Well, you never know...

Get on a team and start doing something.  :yes:
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Everyone else takes normal damage.
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Offline mxlm

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
the average readers were used to and required higher literature standards - be it novels or non-fiction books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_novel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_dreadful
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Well, you never know...

Get on a team and start doing something.  :yes:
No, see, you're missing my point. :p I don't doubt that I could learn the technical skills acquired to join a modding team...what I lack are the creative skills to do so.  I see members of this community whip up ridiculously awesome ship designs, or gorgeous textures, or top-notch mission writing, and I stand and applaud them because I don't have any of the same creative impulses flying around in my head.  I imagine I'm not the only member of that group, either.  I think it's something that a lot of creative types have a bit of difficulty grasping, that there are those of us who can't put pen to paper and draw forth stories and pictures out of the blue.  It's an enviable gift.

 
Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Even imagination takes practice.  :)

 

Offline MR_T3D

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Yeah, I'm more in the camp of 'not enough time/motivation to learn the technical skills' as opposed to the creative one, I think up crazy stuff frequently and easily.
so exact opposite problem.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
We need to combine our powarz and become Super Modder. :p

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Even imagination takes practice.  :)

Anyone who has spent much time around amateur fiction set will tell you this is a lie. Very few people actually improve measurably over time, particularly in a way unrelated to their growing older. If you were 20 and writing garbage five years ago, you're almost certainly writing garbage now. Absent external pressure, people don't typically get better at their craft. (And it can even happen in a professional capacity after a writer has secured a wide audience: they often deteriorate. One could also point to Halo: Reach for an example of professional quality going south if tempted.)

The only reason I even think I have improved in the last five years is that I have an unrelated but highly educational fascination with how and why you do things wrong.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
I think Reach had a new lead writer.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Thanks Mongoose and NGTM-1R; for your comments about creativity are right on spot. I would be tempted to say everybody has an equal chance of doing arts, but on the other hand I also know that a lot of people weren't born for it and would feel like lying if I did so. The question is should the hopeful be discouraged or encouraged? That one can admit to himself that he probably never can become a writer or any artist is also a feat in itself, wisdom even. Perhaps you will find the suitable art some day, for arts too are an integral part of life! Being a participant in any form of arts is not just research and knowledge, on the contrary, it is far more that cannot be put in words. Such things one will not find in libraries nor in Universities for there is no school that could teach it. Only those born in a suitable situation in a community at the right time can truly become great writers, otherwise the path they take will lead to mediocrity at best. There just is no way to write of something of which they have no experience. For how could one write about the snowy, windy coldness of Planet Hoth without having experienced cold himself? The frozen eye-lashes that cast a white shadow on everything one sees, the lying frozen toes and fingers that say it is not cold any more, or the wind with icy shards that make the skin tingle? How could they possibly write about creatures that float in the atmosphere of a gas giant planet without having soared themselves? Feel the the hot convections under you, or the gentle, invisible force supporting you while gliding through the skies!

Make no mistake, I do not consider mediocrity in itself as a bad thing as it will always be part of life, even in myself - there is bound to be somebody who sees something that I do as sub-par, even some tiniest details. For me, it is the lack of the the truly great pieces of art that disturbs me while we are supposed to be living the best of the times and have all the resources and technology to make it happen, yet it still feels like echoing-ing-ing the great words of those who were earlier. Those who had a way of dressing their deepest feelings and thoughts so elegantly to words so effortlessly through any cultural or linguistical barriers and continue to do so throughout history, had a burning passion inside them to write. To write of their experiences and what they saw since they were born to see and listen to the world differently and were treated as such. Such was that passion that even the difficulty of methods to deliver their thoughts did not discourage them; the stories just happened, whether it was the fingers carrying a pencil or hitting the keystrokes of a typewriter. Perhaps they never were good making speeches or were treated otherwise unfairly, but the human desire of telling something to others does not go away that easily! And the person who does not talk is very good at listening. Understanding something of the human nature is the key to mastering art of writing, but no amount of studying can give that understanding. One cannot describe the self-satisfied smugness experienced after beating someone in a fair game or fight, even after having warned the opponent about the outcome, unless one hasn't actually experienced it. For this is the reason why the memorable stories must always contain a part of the writer himself.

Through centuries writings were controlled, since a lot of people felt something was wrong but lacked the evidence. Now that there was a written word of it, that feeling became knowledge, and with knowledge becomes resolution. The masses became angry due to writings of early protestants in Germany; thousands of peasants died in rebellions that were ultimately in vain, while seeking only justice, fairness in treatment and just the being able to feed their families. But say a wrong word in a wrong place, you lose your head! Writing is a powerful tool, and simple words resonate within the people, but this requires sophistication. One can adore the beauty of simple expressions, laugh at the contrived adjectives and images, or feel anger towards the ugly rape of literature. Nevertheless, single words are the key here, but repeat one of them too much and all their meaning and power is lost! Constructing a book in a way that the writer can upset the reader in a well calculated manner in a single chapter is a start, but being able to do so continuously without thinking, just writing it, is a level that few ever achieve. Only a few books can shatter the world of the reader so utterly that he becomes depressed, yet still being a great delight to read. Doing that does not need a plot construct that is based on shock value or detailed torture depictions, it is all about understanding of how human thinks and feels. Indeed one cannot help but wonder how do they do that. And just as easily they change the style and write a story that works exactly in an opposite way.

Such texts cause the reader to wonder if the writer had lived through the times, and cannot escape the nagging feeling that everything in their texts is true and has likely happened. But the goal of writing something intentionally bad should never cross the mind of self-respecting writer, no matter how badly he feels his ego or rights have been violated. For in that particular instance they were lucky that the publisher did not accept the story and sell it as a learning device with great profit margins with a stamp of "written by the professionals" and ask for a sequel.

But what do I know, simple guy living under the Northern Star and just below the Arctic circle. I'm just an illiterate idiot who doesn't know the better truth is out there.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 05:41:47 pm by Mika »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Quote
There just is no way to write of something of which they have no experience.

Whoops, better shut down the forums. FreeSpace is impossible!

Quote
But the goal of writing something intentionally bad should never cross the mind of self-respecting writer, no matter how badly he feels his ego or rights have been violated. For in that particular instance they were lucky that the publisher did not accept the story and sell it as a learning device with great profit margins with a stamp of "written by the professionals" and ask for a sequel.

The publisher did accept the story and sell it, which was what the writers expected to happen. The whole point of the Atlanta Nights exercise was that the publisher claimed to have standards but in fact did not; PublishAmerica was a self-publishing scam meant to hoodwink amateurs out of their money. Atlanta Nights demonstrated that PublishAmerica was a gang of criminal liars who never read a single word of what they accepted and published.

Or do you think that shutting down scams is a bad use of the written word?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 05:47:10 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Only those born in a suitable situation in a community at the right time can truly become great writers, otherwise the path they take will lead to mediocrity at best. There just is no way to write of something of which they have no experience. For how could one write about the snowy, windy coldness of Planet Hoth without having experienced cold himself? The frozen eye-lashes that cast a white shadow on everything one sees, the lying frozen toes and fingers that say it is not cold any more, or the wind with icy shards that make the skin tingle? How could they possibly write about creatures that float in the atmosphere of a gas giant planet without having soared themselves? Feel the the hot convections under you, or the gentle, invisible force supporting you while gliding through the skies!

"Write what you know" is an old adage.

It's also not entirely correct, and definitely not a rule one should slavishly follow; In the end, that's what test readers who know the stuff you are writing about are for. And even then, ultimately, realism will most often take a back seat to narrative necessity.

Quote
Make no mistake, I do not consider mediocrity in itself as a bad thing as it will always be part of life, even in myself - there is bound to be somebody who sees something that I do as sub-par, even some tiniest details. For me, it is the lack of the the truly great pieces of art that disturbs me while we are supposed to be living the best of the times and have all the resources and technology to make it happen, yet it still feels like echoing-ing-ing the great words of those who were earlier. Those who had a way of dressing their deepest feelings and thoughts so elegantly to words so effortlessly through any cultural or linguistical barriers and continue to do so throughout history, had a burning passion inside them to write. To write of their experiences and what they saw since they were born to see and listen to the world differently and were treated as such. Such was that passion that even the difficulty of methods to deliver their thoughts did not discourage them; the stories just happened, whether it was the fingers carrying a pencil or hitting the keystrokes of a typewriter. Perhaps they never were good making speeches or were treated otherwise unfairly, but the human desire of telling something to others does not go away that easily! And the person who does not talk is very good at listening. Understanding something of the human nature is the key to mastering art of writing, but no amount of studying can give that understanding. One cannot describe the self-satisfied smugness experienced after beating someone in a fair game or fight, even after having warned the opponent about the outcome, unless one hasn't actually experienced it. For this is the reason why the memorable stories must always contain a part of the writer himself.

Such eloquence.

Shame it's wasted on the dreary old "Oh no, everything's crap today" sentiment. What are you, 75? Get off your high horse and just try to get used to the fact (which has been pointed out numerous times) that you are suffering from hindsight bias. You look back, and see the great works (which have been made great by years and years of debate over the matter), you look to the present and see a bewildering array of unfiltered culture, which has yet to be firmly separated into "crap" and "classic".

Quote
Through centuries writings were controlled, since a lot of people felt something was wrong but lacked the evidence. Now that there was a written word of it, that feeling became knowledge, and with knowledge becomes resolution. The masses became angry due to writings of early protestants in Germany; thousands of peasants died in rebellions that were ultimately in vain, while seeking only justice, fairness in treatment and just the being able to feed their families. But say a wrong word in a wrong place, you lose your head! Writing is a powerful tool, and simple words resonate within the people, but this requires sophistication. One can adore the beauty of simple expressions, laugh at the contrived adjectives and images, or feel anger towards the ugly rape of literature. Nevertheless, single words are the key here, but repeat one of them too much and all their meaning and power is lost! Constructing a book in a way that the writer can upset the reader in a well calculated manner in a single chapter is a start, but being able to do so continuously without thinking, just writing it, is a level that few ever achieve. Only a few books can shatter the world of the reader so utterly that he becomes depressed, yet still being a great delight to read. Doing that does not need a plot construct that is based on shock value or detailed torture depictions, it is all about understanding of how human thinks and feels. Indeed one cannot help but wonder how do they do that. And just as easily they change the style and write a story that works exactly in an opposite way.

Such texts cause the reader to wonder if the writer had lived through the times, and cannot escape the nagging feeling that everything in their texts is true and has likely happened. But the goal of writing something intentionally bad should never cross the mind of self-respecting writer, no matter how badly he feels his ego or rights have been violated. For in that particular instance they were lucky that the publisher did not accept the story and sell it as a learning device with great profit margins with a stamp of "written by the professionals" and ask for a sequel.

**** off. Take your preachifying elsewhere.

Quote
But what do I know, simple guy living under the Northern Star and just below the Arctic circle. I'm just an illiterate idiot who doesn't know the better truth is out there.

Ohhhh, nice one. Trying to soften the blow by saying "I am just a humble know-nothing".

If you were truly convinced you knew nothing, if you truly were as humble as this last sentence wants me to believe, you wouldn't waste your time preaching about stuff you don't know anything about.

You are just rambling. You are not interested in debate, just in airing your opinions.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Wasn't this a thread about the game industry turning into the music industry?

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Wasn't this a thread about the game industry turning into the music industry?

Meh, we whinge about the gaming industry enough.  Arguing about literature is new and different, don't stifle the debate with on topicness :D
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
It's my own damn fault for picking out a single off-topic sentence and commenting on it. :p

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
:lol:

I suppose part of the problem is that, when you are young, it's all new, but as you grow older, and your experience of the world increases, the patterns of storytelling become more obvious, a million Odesseus' have sailed home from distant lands and faced a myriad of problems, thousands of Arthurs have pulled magical weapons that proclaim their birthright, hundreds of Hari Seldons have tried to save a Galactic federation using mathematical prediction and mind-powers and so forth. New scientific thinking may create new ways to tell those stories, but the stories themselves do not change.

Possibly that's where the new affection for blowing up cities and killing millions of people comes from in storytelling? Are heros becoming boring? There have always been anti-heros (Odesseus wasn't a particularly nice man if you think about it), but there is, to my mind, a growing sense of fatalism in storytelling.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 09:23:54 pm by Flipside »

 
Re: Getting tired of gaming?
:lol:

I suppose part of the problem is that, when you are young, it's all new, but as you grow older, and your experience of the world increases, the patterns of storytelling become more obvious, a million Odesseus' have sailed home from distant lands and faced a myriad of problems, thousands of Arthurs have pulled magical weapons that proclaim their birthright, hundreds of Hari Seldons have tried to save a Galactic federation using mathematical prediction and mind-powers and so forth. New scientific thinking may create new ways to tell those stories, but the stories themselves do not change.

Odd, that's almost exactly one of the things TVTropes says it does when it Ruins Your Life.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

 

Offline mxlm

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Anyone who has spent much time around amateur fiction set will tell you this is a lie. Very few people actually improve measurably over time, particularly in a way unrelated to their growing older.
I want to say this has something to do with their being amateurs, but perhaps not.

Quote from: batman
Whoops, better shut down the forums. FreeSpace is impossible!

I'm loathe to take Mika's part, but I believe his meaning was that only exceptional people can successfully write about things with which they have no direct experience.
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
Humans learn and adapt. One might not be a great writer, but with enough effort and will, and even a small amount of talent, one can become one.

If you start from the assumption that we (our very thought patterns) are formed by our experiences, then we can indeed, change our own thought patterns, by guiding those experiences in ways we want. Hard, but doable.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Getting tired of gaming?
WARNING: EPIC RANT IS REALLY ****ING EPIC.

Thanks Mongoose and NGTM-1R; for your comments about creativity are right on spot. I would be tempted to say everybody has an equal chance of doing arts, but on the other hand I also know that a lot of people weren't born for it and would feel like lying if I did so. The question is should the hopeful be discouraged or encouraged? That one can admit to himself that he probably never can become a writer or any artist is also a feat in itself, wisdom even. Perhaps you will find the suitable art some day, for arts too are an integral part of life! Being a participant in any form of arts is not just research and knowledge, on the contrary, it is far more that cannot be put in words. Such things one will not find in libraries nor in Universities for there is no school that could teach it. Only those born in a suitable situation in a community at the right time can truly become great writers, otherwise the path they take will lead to mediocrity at best. There just is no way to write of something of which they have no experience. For how could one write about the snowy, windy coldness of Planet Hoth without having experienced cold himself? The frozen eye-lashes that cast a white shadow on everything one sees, the lying frozen toes and fingers that say it is not cold any more, or the wind with icy shards that make the skin tingle? How could they possibly write about creatures that float in the atmosphere of a gas giant planet without having soared themselves? Feel the the hot convections under you, or the gentle, invisible force supporting you while gliding through the skies!

An art critic need not be able to draw. A doctor doesn't need to catch a disease to diagnose it. A writer need not go out and freeze half to death to describe it. If they're smart, they'll do some research on the subject first.

But in a larger sense, I am engaged every day in writing about things that I not only have not experienced, but cannot experience. I write about things that not only do not exist, but will not ever exist. But their impossibility is no barrier to their being described. You have to think, horror of horrors. Did you honestly believe that being a writer would be any less demanding upon the imagination that being a reader? Far from it.

Make no mistake, I do not consider mediocrity in itself as a bad thing as it will always be part of life, even in myself - there is bound to be somebody who sees something that I do as sub-par, even some tiniest details. For me, it is the lack of the the truly great pieces of art that disturbs me while we are supposed to be living the best of the times and have all the resources and technology to make it happen, yet it still feels like echoing-ing-ing the great words of those who were earlier. Those who had a way of dressing their deepest feelings and thoughts so elegantly to words so effortlessly through any cultural or linguistical barriers and continue to do so throughout history, had a burning passion inside them to write.

I've got news for you.

Shakespeare? He sucks, his work is incredibly forced and dependent on narrative causality over naturally coming together by good plotting and good characterization. (And he was writing about witches and Titania and Oberon, things which not only did not exist, but never existed.) Hemmingway, oh god, don't get me started about Papa, we'll be here all week. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle! He went through the authorial decay I described above, which was part of the reason Holmes took a header over Reichenbach Falls. (For that matter, Holmes was a druggie, and a detective, and Conan Doyle never was. So much for writing what you know.)

You have been conditioned, by your schooling, to accept these "great masters" as being truly great masters, to overlook their flaws. I went through the same thing, until I hit Hemmingway and violently rejected it. It was an eye-opening experience. A lot of the "great writers of the past" are actually quite awful and narrow in their appeal. We only read one story in all my English classes that everyone could agree on having universal appeal. It was...Phantoms, by Dean Koontz. He is universally regarded by serious literary critics of this day and age as writer of airport suspense stories of no literary value. But his characterization and plotting are undoubtedly superior to Shakespeare, his appeal to a much broader base.

To write of their experiences and what they saw since they were born to see and listen to the world differently and were treated as such. Such was that passion that even the difficulty of methods to deliver their thoughts did not discourage them; the stories just happened, whether it was the fingers carrying a pencil or hitting the keystrokes of a typewriter. Perhaps they never were good making speeches or were treated otherwise unfairly, but the human desire of telling something to others does not go away that easily! And the person who does not talk is very good at listening. Understanding something of the human nature is the key to mastering art of writing, but no amount of studying can give that understanding. One cannot describe the self-satisfied smugness experienced after beating someone in a fair game or fight, even after having warned the opponent about the outcome, unless one hasn't actually experienced it. For this is the reason why the memorable stories must always contain a part of the writer himself.

Lies. Lies and slander. Every first novel is the author as Jesus or Faust, but to continue in that mode is a terrible sign. And be wary of writing about issues close to home, it tends to burn you. I could go on for hours about people who got their Minority Warrior on in their fiction and what should have been a subtext became text and it went south like it was powered by Project Orion.

Also, I hear you say that it is impossible to write, to describe, a truly alien mindset. What you say is that you cannot write a human without being human; but that means you cannot write anything else without being it. No, no, a thousand times no! I summon Battuta with a Made of Meat link to defy thee. I speak of the Ender series' Buggers to refute thee. I throw my copy of Raptor Red in your face. I bury you beneath every story ever told about those who are not of this Earth. I demand you be sealed inside your dwelling with books about Dracula and Frankenstein's Monster, about ghosts and werewolves. I point thee to every book, every television show, every game that has ever attempted to portray the actions of psychopath or a sociopath. I direct thee unto the non-fiction DSM-IV as the proof, the final proof, that you need not experience to describe!

Through centuries writings were controlled, since a lot of people felt something was wrong but lacked the evidence. Now that there was a written word of it, that feeling became knowledge, and with knowledge becomes resolution. The masses became angry due to writings of early protestants in Germany; thousands of peasants died in rebellions that were ultimately in vain, while seeking only justice, fairness in treatment and just the being able to feed their families. But say a wrong word in a wrong place, you lose your head! Writing is a powerful tool, and simple words resonate within the people, but this requires sophistication. One can adore the beauty of simple expressions, laugh at the contrived adjectives and images, or feel anger towards the ugly rape of literature.

First, a question. You are describing something as rape. Therefore, you are saying that you have been raped, yes? Because if it is impossible to describe something without experiencing it?

Okay, so that was a low blow. The point remains.

I direct you to my commentary on dear old Dean above. I also direct you to your own logic. Those who could get published were, in the past, very limited. However, writing is not a discriminatory skill; your age, gender, sexual preference, and birthplace do not factor; hence a lot of people who may have been good writers in the past might not even have learned to read or write. Those who could submit for publishing now are a much broader spectrum of society. We are uncovering a larger number of the truly good today, because we are reaching a larger group of people. A number of those regarded as "truly great" back in the '70s and '80s were writing about the Chinese experience, something which had never been brought into western literature before. Similar things are happening now with Arabic and sub-Saharan African authors.

Or do you believe in some fashion that the underpinning experiences and analytical acumen for writing are factored for by being Western (or possibly Chinese and Arabic for certain periods, though I sort of doubt you've read that)?

Nevertheless, single words are the key here, but repeat one of them too much and all their meaning and power is lost! Constructing a book in a way that the writer can upset the reader in a well calculated manner in a single chapter is a start, but being able to do so continuously without thinking, just writing it, is a level that few ever achieve.

This utterly rejects the concept of escapist literature. Shakespeare no longer counts, I guess, nor Conan Doyle, nor even Homer. Le Morte D'Arthur? Forget it.

We can't all be out there doing the Upton Sinclair thing. It'd be incredibly boring for one thing. And Sinclair wasn't that great of a writer at holding your attention anyways. Mostly you kept reading because the book was already in front of you.

Only a few books can shatter the world of the reader so utterly that he becomes depressed, yet still being a great delight to read. Doing that does not need a plot construct that is based on shock value or detailed torture depictions, it is all about understanding of how human thinks and feels. Indeed one cannot help but wonder how do they do that. And just as easily they change the style and write a story that works exactly in an opposite way.

Crap, this is about Hemmingway isn't it? Or maybe Poe. Poe gets a lot of credit but if you truly want to freak the hell out I recommend James Patterson instead. He does it much better.

So you're saying that censorship is good. Shock value has a place, because there are things in reality that are shocking. There are things in fiction that are shocking too. Are you saying that the last mission of FS2 would be better without the supernova? Similarly, torture happens. If you're now prohibiting the depiction of things that actually occur in reality, and the depiction of things that do not exist, then what is left?

And honestly, this is my third rewrite of this because it got me angry. Since you are not writer I doubt you've even tried to understand how this affects one. (I have not yet reached the point where I doubt you can understand, since as I writer it is my creed that anything may be described accurately, given the correct words.) It's not just the shocking ignorance of what has and has not been written; the Chinese were writing what we'd class as "torture porn" back in the 1200s. It's that you're trying to limit me, to tell me that certain things are impossible. And what the hell is the pleasure of writing, if not to live vicariously things we will never actually experience?

Such texts cause the reader to wonder if the writer had lived through the times, and cannot escape the nagging feeling that everything in their texts is true and has likely happened.

The cyberpunk genre was about doing this, in minute detail, for something that had never actually happened. A lot of relatively recent SF is.

But the goal of writing something intentionally bad should never cross the mind of self-respecting writer, no matter how badly he feels his ego or rights have been violated.  For in that particular instance they were lucky that the publisher did not accept the story and sell it as a learning device with great profit margins with a stamp of "written by the professionals" and ask for a sequel.

The trollfic lives. In a way, to intentionally write something poorly actually takes more skill than to write something good. It requires both the skillset to write well, and study of what it means to write poorly. You can acquire, or simply be born with, the ability write well. You have to actually study at that point to write wrong.

Also. "No True Scotsman." Look it up.
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