Author Topic: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)  (Read 13245 times)

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
It could just as well be humans vs. all the problems plaguing the planet and us: pandemics, plagues, famine, water shortages, climate change...

Or how about "us vs. all the idiots in the past who allowed things to get this bad in the first place"?
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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Obama/Biden and McCain/Palin weren't the only names on the ticket.

In terms of tactical voting they were.

But only because everyone thought so.

 

Offline Bob-san

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Obama/Biden and McCain/Palin weren't the only names on the ticket.

In terms of tactical voting they were.

But only because everyone thought so.
So I vote for ___ candidate and they get +0.00000077% (1/130,000,000) of the popular vote. But, the important part is that popular vote doesn't mean jack **** outside your state. Obama won in NY by a 26% margin. Of 7,640,643 voters, 4.8 million (62.88%) voted for Obama. Neither Nader nor Barr would have had even a single electoral vote in NY if every Nader or Barr voter lived in the state. It might work in Maine or Nebraska, but it won't work in New York or any highly-populated state (California, Texas, Florida, etc.).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:51:15 am by Bob-san »
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
cultural/geopolitical divides will always be present.

So you keep saying, but I haven't so far seen any real argument to why it is so.
Some cultures are just plain incompatible. So unless you destroy all of these cultures and merge them into one, there will be divides.

Ontopic: This was on the news here today. Though they apparantly didn't knew it is the handy work of Anon, they did mention 'operation payback'
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
But only because everyone thought so.

Most people, approximately 40% of the population last I checked (admittedly a few years back), vote a straight party ticket every time. Another 10% swing their party ticket back and forth but still vote one or the other pretty much exclusively. Relatively few people appear to actually to do thinking.

So basically, even if those two had been able to capture a significant portion of the independent bloc, they're still screwed.
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Offline Swifty

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
This world government talk is some really interesting stuff and I agree with it all. However, I feel as though the "nation states should be and will be abolished" is a bit of a strawman argument towards the current issue. I feel like it really didn't answer the questions and comments put forth around the subject that stimulated this conversation: Why should nation states reveal all their bargaining positions now? Save for the aforementioned supranational global entity that places constraints on unitary actors, doesn't this all hinge on the fact that we won't be at a Hobbesian state of nature where actors stand to gain more if they defect instead of cooperate?

I feel as though this is simply an extension of the Democratic Peace Theory. This is probably Political Science's latest fascination for the past 50 years. To those not familiar with the concept, it's a theory stemming from the observation that generally open countries will cooperate with one another and everything is quite hunky dory between them. However, it also makes the observation that democratic states are much less receptive and less cooperative when interacting with closed, autocratic countries. It is likely that these types of actors stand to benefit more from defecting than cooperating and will more than gladly eat up any sort of new found openness in foreign policy for lunch.

And so, I have a pretty nuanced opinion on this latest batch of Wikileaks. I agree on principle that diplomatic cables, among other things, should be made public. However, pragmatically I don't think it's such a great idea right now when there still exists non-democratic states who don't have the necessary constraints (liberal free trade, democratically elected governance) placed on them to cooperate instead of defect.

But hey, once we've achieved homogeneous liberal governance in all nations, that will probably be the first stepping stone towards global governance anyway. Check out what the Europeans did once everyone in the neighborhood became a democracy.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
I don't think national states should be abolished - most likely, attempting a forced change like that would fail atrociously.

Instead I think the concept of national states will slowly become more and more obsolete and redundant, while the national identities of the people slowly morph into something larger. In the case of European Union, there was a lot of grumbling about "losing sovereignty" when Finland joined the Union. Yet, these days most people consider the EU a positive thing by and large, and I think despite people here still considering themselves prominently Finnish, they are also starting to consider themselves Europeans in addition to their own national identity.* And this has happened within 20 years (Finland joined the European Union officially in 1995).

It's possible that national states will naturally morph into larger power blocks. United States is an interesting case, because they mostly skipped the national state stage altogether - even though they have states in name, their national identity is that they are americans.

Time will tell what will happen in Africa, South America and Asia. Africa is way behind the rest of the world because they're still so screwed up after colonization, they don't really have proper historically developed national states even, they have a bunch of countries with arbitrarily drawn borders and in some areas, governments have little to no influence outside their capital - the countryside being ruled by tribal communities, religious authorities and/or warlords.

Middle and South America have countries with strong national states and strong national identities, but the political instability will likely prevent close co-operation in near future.

Asia is perhaps the most interesting place for unification speculation. For historical reasons, though, I doubt many of the countries would be too keen on forming an union of any kind with China (North Korea doesn't count, it's an anomaly). China being essentially a totalitarian regime makes other countries probably very unwilling to have anything to do with them, and if you add the history between, say China and Vietnam, China and Japan, China and Mongolia, and China and Korea, India and Pakistan... not to speak of the general Middle East cluster****, I don't see any Asian Unification process happening any time soon either.


But Swifty has a good point. Liberal, democratic factions would probably not co-operate with totalitarian regimes like China, and would likely feel uncomfortable even dealing with countries with dubious democratic integrity (such as Russia).

On the topic of wikileaks, I find myself largely agreeing with Swifty on most counts. However I dont know if it should be in anyone's interests to keep their "bargaining positions" hidden in the first place. Open international politics could potentially reduce the amount of miscommunications and misunderstandings - after all, politicians are only humans as well.

Case in point, Vietnam War. I hear Robert Strange McNamara went to Vietnam in some anniversary celebration to the ending of the war, and ended up talking with some North Vietnamese head honcho about the reasons for the war. He asked why the Americans went to Vietnam, and McNamara told them they were worried about the Chinese growing their sphere of incluence, and that they went there to keep the Vietnamese free from Chinese influence. As the story goes, the Vietnamese guy asked McNamara if he knew any of the history between China and Vietnam, since those countries had been warring for thousands of years, and that the Vietnamese had no intention of slaving themselves to the Chinese. They had just ejected the French from the country, freeing themselves from colonial rule for the first time in a long time, and they saw the Americans as another imperialist invader that intended to colonize the country, so of course they fought back.

Over a million North Vietnamese dead or missing, over half a million wounded; about 220000 South Vietnamese dead or missing, over a million wounded; almost 60000 american troops dead or missing and over 300000 wounded, not to mention all the PTSD victims...

...all for a crucial, critical error of judgement and misunderstanding for the motivations of each party, and for the cause of the whole war.

Keeping one's bargaining positions hidden from the negotiations until you decide to put them on the table is sometimes a good idea, but it can also cause tragic misjudgements. Especially if both sides have the power to totally eradicate the other... :nervous:


*One could argue that this "European Identity" has at least partially developed as a foil to the American influence on world politics during the reign of George II - especially the invasion of Iraq against the wishes of the United Nations (US justification for the war according to UN resolution 1441 hinged on the existense of WMD's which were not discovered and apparently never existed outside faked or "misinterpreted" intelligence reports), the practically unilateral support of Israel, general perceived attitude of "murricans", the willingness to act as the "World Police" even when asked.

Though, I have no idea if the UK citizens, or for that matter people in the old big European countries like Germany or France consider themselves "Europeans" in this sense.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:18:55 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Galemp

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Ironically, I suspect the best thing that could happen to Earth would be an external threat of alien invasion.

Or failing that, a fabricated one. :p

I've always held that if I were a wealth billionaire the greatest legacy I could ever give humanity would be to trick them into thinking aliens are going to invade in a few years from now. :p

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
That's what Nancy Leider has been trying to do for years ;)

Difference is, she actually believes it...

 

Offline peterv

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Ironically, I suspect the best thing that could happen to Earth would be an external threat of alien invasion.

Or failing that, a fabricated one. :p

I've always held that if I were a wealth billionaire the greatest legacy I could ever give humanity would be to trick them into thinking aliens are going to invade in a few years from now. :p

Yeap! that would be a great legacy for the humanity, it would take us to the stars! And we all know now that there are Shivans there which means that we'll be well prepared.

Those who actually are billionaires though, tend to trick people into thinking that  jokes like wikileaks are very very very important events.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Obama/Biden and McCain/Palin weren't the only names on the ticket.

In terms of tactical voting they were.

But only because everyone thought so.

It's easy for people from countries with Parliamentary systems to forget that the US system is literally set up that way.

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
n00bs. ;)

  

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
honestly I think we should get a parliament, a third house of congress with 100 members determined by proportional direct election.
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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
And they would do what exactly?
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
vote on and introduce legislation....
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Don't we already have two houses that already do that?  I'm just wondering what a third house of Congress would actually do.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
That's the thing - bicameral parliaments are unnecessarily complicated.

Unicameral parliament with amount of representatives balanced for the population of the districts would remove a lot of unnecessary bureaucratic drag.

As an example, Finnish parliament has 200 representatives; in the elections, the country is divided into districts which each have lists of candidates, and the districts vote for their candidates. Technically the number of representatives from each district correlates with the population in said district, but due to the method used to calculate the votes it's not always as simple as saying that the candidates with the highest amount of votes in their district would get a place in the parliament.

At any rate - from our 200-strong parliament, a government (Council of State) is formed and nominated by the president.

In terms of Montesquieu's separation of powers:

The president and the government represent the executive branch of power. Basically, they manage things on the high level. They are also responsible of preparation of new legislation, in conjunction with several committees (including the constitutional committee). They are accountable to the parliament, which can call for vote of no confidence against the government, in which case a new government is formed.

The parliament represents legislative branch of power. Their job is to decide on new legislation, whether to pass it or not. Technically, the president has the veto on new legislation, and if I recall right has the right to disband the parliament and call for new elections.

The Supreme court is the highest organ of judiciary branch of power, and it basically is responsible of ruling cases in which the legislation doesn't provide clear answers, and those rulings will be referred to as precedent afterwards. There is also the aforementioned constitutional committee which basically scrutinies new legislation proposals for breaches of the constitution.


The thing is, Finland is a relatively small country. Forming a functional government for five million people is somewhat different from forming a functional government for 300 million people. Proportional direct election would be problematic in USA. What would be the "block" of population that would have one representative? Would it be the 65,628 people in American Samoa? Or maybe the 544,270 people in Wyoming?

With 300 000 000 people, if you had one representative for every 500 000 people, you'd have a parliament of 600 people. House of Representatives has only 435 seats. Senate has 100 seats, two for each member state. As such, small states are grossly over-represented in the current US government.

In proportional direct election, a state like Wyoming shouldn't even have one whole representative in the House of Representatives. As far as population goes, the smaller states are grossly over-represented in the US congress as it is. So, you would need to have a much larger parliament if you wanted it to really work.

As an example, the European Parliament is a directly elected parliament, and it has currently 736 seats; each member state has a number of representatives proportional to its population.

The biggest issue in parliamentary organ this large is actually running it.
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
Just one alien invasion is all we need to prove you wrong. :p

Just curious, any historical basis for believing that? I'm not convinced that it's true, but I imagine there's some parallels to be drawn from history...

I tend to think that an alien invasion would have us playing the role of Native Americans vs colonizing Europeans.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
We fought him hard, we fought him well
Out on the plains we gave him hell

But many came, too much for Cree
Oh will we ever be set free
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Re: Crap, 4chan's at it again (Wikileaks related)
*Long Post*
Our bicameral system is like a lot of the government, a compromise.  During the Constitutional Convention, the small states wanted equal representation in Congress for the states, and the larger, more populous states wanted it based on population.  Since both the small and large states were needed, everyone just decided to give the small states the Senate and the populous states the House of Representatives.  Another thing to keep in mind is that the Constitution as intended was to be a union of the various colonies into one government while maintaining a large degree of sovereignty for the individual states, not to create an over-arching federal government similar to what European nations do.  Congresspeople are elected by their states to represent that state's interests in Congress.  The Senate was even originally chosen by the state legislatures so the state governments could have a say in the running of the federal government.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems