Author Topic: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment  (Read 9713 times)

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Banning them from praying at an official meeting which can (and for that matter should) include people who aren't of that religion does break the rules about freedom of religious expression. Especially as we all know we're only ever going to hear Christian prayers (or at best ones from the Abrahamic religions).

Let me ask you this. If a Satanist wanted to say a prayer there, would you let him?

i could ASK him not to.  but if that actually happened, yes.  i would just leave.  and no, i'm not just saying this because it's christians praying.  i would expect nothing different in israel with jewish prayer or in any predominantly muslim country.  if i was visiting any such occurance, i would sit quietly while they prayed and not get all snippy and up in arms about being offended. 
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Gotta love the hypocritical and silly USA, unless you're a Christian, the constitution doesn't apply!

Makes me want to go make my own country, a country that actually follows its own rules, and is actually free.


I've seriously considered going to the moon and making my own country there...............
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
This thread: :lol:
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Banning them from praying at an official meeting which can (and for that matter should) include people who aren't of that religion does break the rules about freedom of religious expression. Especially as we all know we're only ever going to hear Christian prayers (or at best ones from the Abrahamic religions).

Let me ask you this. If a Satanist wanted to say a prayer there, would you let him?

i could ASK him not to.  but if that actually happened, yes.  i would just leave.  and no, i'm not just saying this because it's christians praying.  i would expect nothing different in israel with jewish prayer or in any predominantly muslim country.  if i was visiting any such occurance, i would sit quietly while they prayed and not get all snippy and up in arms about being offended. 

But many muslim countries use that religion as a centrepiece of their legal and governmental system, and the prayers are usually a way of driving that home, Christian, Muslim or any other kind of prayer at the start of a Government hearing, as was mentioned earlier, puts 'primers' in the air for the way people react and what sort of thinking is 'expected' of them. I grew up watching an America that used to thrive on that seperation move, over the last 25 years to the point where it looks for excuses to break it whenever possible, it's quite depressing to be honest.

It'd be like trying to open Parliament with a football match because 'everyone likes football'. That's great, but what's it got to do with politics, and why assume the majority is everyone? If one MP turned around and said they didn't like football, and got voted out because of it, it'd look as silly as it was.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 08:31:36 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
It'd be like trying to open Parliament with a football match because 'everyone likes football'. That's great, but what's it got to do with politics, and why assume the majority is everyone? If one MP turned around and said they didn't like football, and got voted out because of it, it'd look as silly as it was.

except to that one MP and the hockey fans he was the sole representative for.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Heh, to be honest, if people want to vote for a representative because he or she is religious, or atheist, or hates football, or whatever, that's up to the voters, I suppose the point I'm getting at is that those personal beliefs and observances should be kept out of the mechanism of government because it blurs the line between Objectivity and Subjectivity :)

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment


With World War 3 around the corner, you'll be thanking my future success.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Spoon

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
with Catholicism for example saying that all non-Catholics will go to hell
wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

So, not wrong!
Heaven will be awesome, if only because all you fanatic athetists aren't there.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
or you know there is always the possibility that YOU are wrong and the law does NOT say that a law making body can mandate an official prayer as part of its official procedure. or that you simply are not listening to what I have been saying and are therefore arguing against a position I am not taking.

I already covered this.  In general practice, laws in common law countries function by prohibiting certain things, not by conveying positive traits for what one is permitted to do.  There are exceptions of course.  However, the wording of the First Amendment and the subsequent Supreme Court interpretations of it [Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947) applies here] support a prohibitive stance on the establishment clause.

In short, it prohibits Congress from enacting laws based upon religion.  That's it.  As official (or traditional) procedure is not established in law, and there is nothing to indicate there is a law on the books that mandates participation is such practices, the establishment clause does not apply.  There is a much stronger argument that the freedom of expression clause is applicable, however, as those who wish to do so can participate in the tradition freely and those who do not are not required to do so.

I am reading what you are saying quite closely.  What you are saying is displaying a significant lack of understanding of how common law works.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
how is the organization, function and procedure of US governmental bodies defined? is it not by law?
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Heaven will be awesome, if only because all you fanatic athetists aren't there.

I'm not a fanatic atheist, I'm a militant pacifist.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Heaven will be awesome, if only because all you fanatic athetists aren't there.

I'm not a fanatic atheist, I'm a militant pacifist.
  :p :lol:
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
how is the organization, function and procedure of US governmental bodies defined? is it not by law?

Generally speaking, frameworks are set out in law, while specific procedural "housekeeping" is a matter of policy and/or tradition.  For example, the Constitution sets out the structure and function of Congress, but the way Congress does business on a daily basis is a matter of policies and traditions they have adopted over the course of time.  Legislative bodies are very similar to the court system in this way; there are very few actual laws (or case law) that govern how procedure runs in a court room - most procedure is a matter of tradition that has evolved over time.

I have no specific information on the Hawaii State body and how it's procedural rules are set out.  It is unlikely that its "housekeeping" procedures (of which the opening of a session would be a part) are set out in law.  If their procedures are set out in law, then they would be subject to the establishment clause, as I previously indicated (but only insofar as such laws made participation mandatory and infringed on the free expression clause).
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Gotta love the hypocritical and silly USA, unless you're a Christian, the constitution doesn't apply!

Makes me want to go make my own country, a country that actually follows its own rules, and is actually free.
I've seriously considered going to the moon and making my own country there...............

http://www.amazon.com/Moon-Harsh-Mistress-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0312863551

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
with Catholicism for example saying that all non-Catholics will go to hell
wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

So, not wrong!
Heaven will be awesome, if only because all you fanatic athetists aren't there.

id rather go to hell than spend all eternity with a bunch of bible thumpers.
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
And once again, we see the tension between the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause... yet another situation where they're both tugging in different directions.
Not really.  As Ryan so eloquently put it, the Establishment Clause basically states, "Okay, the state can't impose religious beliefs on other people," and the Free Exercise Clause says, "Okay, you can worship whomever and however you want."  There's not really any inherent tension between the two statements, though certain interpretations may generate such.

I disagree: I think there most definitely is inherent tension, because there are reasonable interpretations of the clauses that can conflict. If there weren't, we wouldn't be having this debate (in various variations) every three months for the past 230 years.


 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Hawaii's reckless disregard for the first amendment
Why.

Where is the tension?  Elaborate please.