[Mobius]

I would be interested on a compromise between smoothing and making it blocky. I feel like too much smoothing could "ruin" the original mesh.

[TrashMan]

I agree with Hades. The smoothing and texture-detailing deal works for fighters and bombers but not for bigger ships.

That's what normal maps are for...

And..sez who?
Here's a big ship - tell me the smooth look doesn't work for it!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2328345121_765ed89fe8_o.jpg

[Hades]

I agree with Hades. The smoothing and texture-detailing deal works for fighters and bombers but not for bigger ships.

That's what normal maps are for...

And..sez who?
Here's a big ship - tell me the smooth look doesn't work for it!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2328345121_765ed89fe8_o.jpg

One, normal mapping isn't sufficient for detail on a ship as large as this - for a fighter or bomber, yes, because they're extremely small and fast, and you, in game, do not normally see them in great detail - but on a ship this big, it's necessary to model in detail as it's both slow and large and you will almost always have a good look at them.

And I never said smoothing was bad - in fact, I even suggested smoothing and then adding detail.

If you just smooth it, you'll have it turn out like the Typhon turned out, almost visibly no different from the retail model, same as if you tile it (in which case it won't go into the MVPS) **Zacam: Really?

[Snail]

I'm sure we can all agree that the Cain and Hatshepsut approaches were ideal...

[General Battuta]

yep pretty much

[Commander Zane]

+1 for agreement.

[TrashMan]

One, normal mapping isn't sufficient for detail on a ship as large as this - for a fighter or bomber, yes, because they're extremely small and fast, and you, in game, do not normally see them in great detail - but on a ship this big, it's necessary to model in detail as it's both slow and large and you will almost always have a good look at them.

That depends completely on your expectations. If you expect capships to have large greeble jutting out everywhere, then yes.
if not, then no.

I've seen capital ships where normal maps did a great job.

[Dragon]

On capships normal maps are less for small details and more for simulating "material" of the armor (for example, making a steel plating look more like steel).

[peterv]

I agree with TrashMan on this. It all depends on the needed volume of the details. Even the Hatshepsut has big areas where normal maps alone are doing the job.

[Nyctaeus]

I agree with TrashMan on this. It all depends on the needed volume of the details. Even the Hatshepsut has big areas where normal maps alone are doing the job.

Agrees also. Good mapping can look better than model details.

[Hades]

Good mapping can only do so much to cover a bad model.



Personally, they look too much like the same, and imagine them both textured? Even less of a difference then, and that's how we'll see this in game.

[Snail]

The Sobek and Anuket are good examples of how not to do HTLs, if you ask me. The Cain and Hatshepsut HTLs took a lot of artistic liberty while staying true to the feel and spirit of the ships they were upgrading. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the results were less than fantastic; and I can't comprehend why someone would want to deliberately avoid that.

[peterv]

Suggestion: Let's use HTL Hatshepsut in the place of the Demon and this one instead of Hatshepsut. They would would look so different and FSU's mission would be accomplished. 

I agree though that Trashman's model needs more details, but  balanced details.
In general, it's not to far from finished. Texturing it is a different mater.

The Sobek and Anuket are good examples of how not to do HTLs, if you ask me. The Cain and Hatshepsut HTLs took a lot of artistic liberty while staying true to the feel and spirit of the ships they were upgrading. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the results were less than fantastic; and I can't comprehend why someone would want to deliberately avoid that.

I also agree with this 
And i also believe that a HTL of a capital ship can't stay 100% true to the retail ships, as Volition would do them, because of the tiling and the lack of information caused by this. If we had that information, i would have no hesitation.

[T-LoW]

I'm praying at my Hattie and Cain/Lilith shrines every day to give me luck in life. They are still the pinnacle of FSU's models (the other post 2007 HTLs are of course friggin' awesome too compared to their forerunners!)

That's the way new models should go.

[Snail]

I just don't believe you can make something look as good as the Hatshepsut or Cain HTLs without taking a bit of artistic liberty and departing from what's simply on the texture. This becomes more true as the ship gets bigger. Take the Colossus for example, if you just modelled in the detail you'd get an unevenly detailed supersoaker that has a lot of armpit hair greebles in one or two places but just bare, flat tiling on giant stretches of the thing.

I was actually initially against the whole idea of changing things, but on seeing how great the Hatshepsut and Cain look, I just think that could never have happened if they'd just modelled in the texture detail and left it at that. Sometimes there's just not enough detail on the thing to extrapolate details from. I think some departure from the source material is needed, but to an extent that keeps the original ship's character, and doesn't just go crazy adding random greebles everywhere (which is what the HTL Orion did).

[Hades]

I'm praying at my Hattie and Cain/Lilith shrines every day to give me luck in life. They are still the pinnacle of FSU's models (the other post 2007 HTLs are of course friggin' awesome too compared to their forerunners!)

That's the way new models should go.

Don't forget the new Typhon and Boadicea by the same person as the Hattie.

I just don't believe you can make something look as good as the Hatshepsut or Cain HTLs without taking a bit of artistic liberty and departing from what's simply on the texture. This becomes more true as the ship gets bigger. Take the Colossus for example, if you just modelled in the detail you'd get an unevenly detailed supersoaker that has a lot of armpit hair greebles in one or two places but just bare, flat tiling on giant stretches of the thing.

I was actually initially against the whole idea of changing things, but on seeing how great the Hatshepsut and Cain look, I just think that could never have happened if they'd just modelled in the texture detail and left it at that. Sometimes there's just not enough detail on the thing to extrapolate details from. I think some departure from the source material is needed, but to an extent that keeps the original ship's character, and doesn't just go crazy adding random greebles everywhere (which is what the HTL Orion did).

Same here, and I agree with both posts.

[peterv]

....Sometimes there's just not enough detail on the thing to extrapolate details from. I think some departure from the source material is needed, but to an extent that keeps the original ship's character, and doesn't just go crazy adding random greebles everywhere (which is what the HTL Orion did).

Agreed again. 

[Commander Zane]

Agree with the previous three posts.

[TrashMan]

The Sobek and Anuket are good examples of how not to do HTLs, if you ask me. The Cain and Hatshepsut HTLs took a lot of artistic liberty while staying true to the feel and spirit of the ships they were upgrading. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the results were less than fantastic; and I can't comprehend why someone would want to deliberately avoid that.

Tastes.

Artistic liberty you might take for great I might think sucks. And vice-versa.

It also depends on what you consider to be the core aspects of the ship you're "upgrading". For example, the Hahsephut model is great, but the Typhon concept by the same maker? I don't like it at all. Why? Because it doesn't look like a typhon to me anymore.

Now, the question is - what makes the demon, a demon?
Should it retain some harder, more agressive edges OR should it be curved and smoothed?
Should it's armor be greebled up to whazoo OR should it look liek one massive, monolithic chunk?

[pecenipicek]

The Typhon by ragingloli is no concept, it'll be going into the MVPs.

after i or somebody else finishes the textures....