[Dilmah G]

Evening ladies and gents,

Yes, we've had a million 'guys, which joystick should I buy?' threads. But something that seriously annoys at least myself and the other hardcore simmers on the board, is the deadzone on sticks that's still there even when the configuration is set to deadzone: 0 in whichever application the stick's being used in. I understand that sticks can be manually adjusted to lessen the DZ, but I'm really only willing to do this as a last resort.

And to the task at hand, has anyone found a stick with as close to 0 deadzone as physically possibly, that works with OS's past XP?

If I'm going to use this stack of Christmas money I've got, I'm planning to use it on something that isn't going to annoy the hell out of me. Sidewinder's had a good rep with me but the Force Feedback 2 isn't something I trust to run reliably on Vista, at the least of things.

[Sushi]

I went back to mouse. Solved the deadzone problem nicely.

[Commander Zane]

Doesn't the Saitek X-65F have no Deadzone?
Plus it doesn't move at all either...

[Nuke]

my ch fighter stick doesn't seem to have a dead zone. id avoid saitek because the last 2 sticks i had from them had massive deadzones (ive owned a x52 and an x36? i think).

[Swifty]

The Saitek X-65F has no deadzone because it's a force sensing stick and doesn't even move. It's perfectly centered. Forever. :X

[Thaeris]

It will also cost you a cool $400 USD.

[Dilmah G]

I'd love to grab the X-65 if it wasn't for the price. The CH Fighterstick is something I'm considering, but that throttle control doesn't look that suitable to me.

[Thaeris]

The CH Fighterstick doesn't have a built-in throttle, nor does it have a twist axis. I believe rather that the idea behind it is that you make use of the HOTAS throttle that goes along with it; both the stick and the throttle are based off the F-16's controls, so that ought to make it more worthwhile to a Falcon player such as yourself. And of course, the whole set-up is again designed to make use of the yaw axis with the help of rudder pedals.

...Of course, the Fighterstick is covered with many multi-directional hats, so you ought to be able to manage if you go for it.

*EDIT

Alright, I was looking up the specs. Apparently it does have a throttle column on there somewhere...

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, I believe it's some sort of wheel on the side...

If I were to purchase the throttle quadrant + fighterstick, I would be broke, unfortunately, even as appealing as the stick is to me. After some thuoght, the X-52 Pro's features are great, and it's the most economical (HOTAS kit for the lowest price of the newer kits), but the DZ business is getting me.

I may google how to alter its DZ and see if it's fairly doable with the resources I've got, and if so, I may just get that. I understand Thrustmaster have a nice kit modeled on the A-10, I believe, but that's even further out of my price range.

[Nuke]

I'd love to grab the X-65 if it wasn't for the price. The CH Fighterstick is something I'm considering, but that throttle control doesn't look that suitable to me.

i never use the throttle wheel on the joystick for anything. i sometimes use it as a trim knob in some flight sims but thats it, and even then its redundant because the joystick has hardware trim built in. you really need to get the pro throttle, its a good throttle, have a pretty good thumb joystick. one thing i dont like about ch is the excessive use of hat switches. 4 on the joystick and 4 on the throttle seems a tad excessive. also it does not have a twist feature, but i perfer to not have one because it throws off the tactile feedback. i consider it critical in a joystick to be able to feel the spring tension in both axes, and thats the one things that makes the ch fighterstick really kick ass.

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, I guess hat switches are a cheaper alternative to a lot of buttons, though. Can imagine pressing it in the wrong direction in a dogfight, though.

I may have to work to buy the throttle quadrant, though. But then I'll have to forgo pedals, which I've been after for a while.

[Nuke]

i thought the throttle quadrant was that bank of  levers they sell for throttling multi-engine aircraft. the pro throttle is the fighter-ish throttle i was talking about. but it works in freespace, because you can use the thumb stick for your roll axis. given the price its a good idea to buy the fighter stick, first, then the other elements later. keep in mind these things will last you forever, theyre made in the usa and they actually have good resale value on ebay incase you want to get rid of them.

[Herra Tohtori]

The X-52 can be modified to be practically void of deadzone.

I did this and can confirm that it works rather well, and as a nice bonus the stick becomes closer to linear in response curve.

The reason for the large deadzone in X52 is that right around the center position, the two magnets providing the field for Hall effect sensors are too far from the sensor, which means that motions right around the center will be below sensor's threshold. Attaching the magnets closer to sensor changes this.

I will be experimenting on the issue by attaching more magnets to the original mounting when I get home, just to figure out if the change in deadzone is due to the closer proximity of the magnets, or the changed geometry of placement compared to original design.

[Dilmah G]

i thought the throttle quadrant was that bank of  levers they sell for throttling multi-engine aircraft. the pro throttle is the fighter-ish throttle i was talking about. but it works in freespace, because you can use the thumb stick for your roll axis. given the price its a good idea to buy the fighter stick, first, then the other elements later. keep in mind these things will last you forever, theyre made in the usa and they actually have good resale value on ebay incase you want to get rid of them.

Ah yeah, that was my bad terminology. I learned to fly on the C152, and as a result, started calling everything that looks like a throttle a TC out of habit. I'll go down to my local electrical store and take a look at their CH range and see if I can get some hands on time with the stick.

The X-52 can be modified to be practically void of deadzone.

I did this and can confirm that it works rather well, and as a nice bonus the stick becomes closer to linear in response curve.

The reason for the large deadzone in X52 is that right around the center position, the two magnets providing the field for Hall effect sensors are too far from the sensor, which means that motions right around the center will be below sensor's threshold. Attaching the magnets closer to sensor changes this.

I will be experimenting on the issue by attaching more magnets to the original mounting when I get home, just to figure out if the change in deadzone is due to the closer proximity of the magnets, or the changed geometry of placement compared to original design.

Hmm, apparently the X-52 Pro has double the amount of sensors or something to that effect, is it still possible with the Pro?

[Nuke]

the only thing that makes the pro better is the 10 bit resolution. joysticks went backwards in terms of resolution when they switched over to usb. it was not unusual to have joysticks with a 16 bit resolution, since the joystick itself did not provide the adc and instead used a 16 bit adc on the sound card. some of the later gameport joysticks played with the resolution in an attempt to get more axes or buttons, like the precision pro had 10 bit x and y axes with a 7 bit twist axis and 6 bit throttle axis.

usb joysticks all use their own microcontroller for reading the axes, and the resolution depends on the chip. i find it rather cheap of manufacturers for making you pay $300+ for a joystick with a slightly higher resolution, because 10 bit is a common resolution for the adc on your typical microcontroller. microcontrollers with 12 bit adcs can be had for less than $5 bucks (and thats not a bulk rate). whats really depressing is when you look at the datasheet for a chip in a joystick and find out it can do a higher resolution than it actually does. to think just a couple lines of code are all thats required to make the chip use its full capacity really pisses me off. so when you buy a higher resolution joystick (as good as they are), your buying farts. and its not bandwidth concerns, i can stick 8 10-bit channels through a 4800 baud serial connection and still get 50 updates/second.

ch has only started doing 10 bit resolution on its eclipse yoke, but all the joysticks they sell are 8 bit. but id rather have an 8 bit ch than a 10 bit saitek, simply on the grounds that it has much better tactile feedback.

[Dilmah G]

Argh, that sucks. Makes me want to plug in my Precision Pro again.

I'll have to see how the CH stick handles when I can be arsed to walk down to the local computer store.

[Herra Tohtori]

the only thing that makes the pro better is the 10 bit resolution. joysticks went backwards in terms of resolution when they switched over to usb. it was not unusual to have joysticks with a 16 bit resolution, since the joystick itself did not provide the adc and instead used a 16 bit adc on the sound card. some of the later gameport joysticks played with the resolution in an attempt to get more axes or buttons, like the precision pro had 10 bit x and y axes with a 7 bit twist axis and 6 bit throttle axis.

usb joysticks all use their own microcontroller for reading the axes, and the resolution depends on the chip. i find it rather cheap of manufacturers for making you pay $300+ for a joystick with a slightly higher resolution, because 10 bit is a common resolution for the adc on your typical microcontroller. microcontrollers with 12 bit adcs can be had for less than $5 bucks (and thats not a bulk rate). whats really depressing is when you look at the datasheet for a chip in a joystick and find out it can do a higher resolution than it actually does. to think just a couple lines of code are all thats required to make the chip use its full capacity really pisses me off. so when you buy a higher resolution joystick (as good as they are), your buying farts. and its not bandwidth concerns, i can stick 8 10-bit channels through a 4800 baud serial connection and still get 50 updates/second.

ch has only started doing 10 bit resolution on its eclipse yoke, but all the joysticks they sell are 8 bit. but id rather have an 8 bit ch than a 10 bit saitek, simply on the grounds that it has much better tactile feedback.

Are you certain about that 8bit thing? 'Cause most joysticks I have used more than 256 discrete values per axis. I have an old Cyborg Evo with me, and it has 1024 values for the primary axes (X/Y) and 512 values for twist handle rudder and throttle. (X/Y range 0-1023, throttle/twist handle range 0-511). If I'm not much mistaken, 8-bit resolution only offers 256 values, but do correct me if I'm in the wrong here.

And before you ask, no, they aren't software interpolated - each value can be accessed by correct joystick position, albeit the angle difference is really small between values so it's easy to skip values.

And tactile feedback is overrated unless you actually have a well functioning force feedback stick - centering force just doesn't typically represent the forces on airplane controls. You can get all the feedback you need from visual and aural cues from the game itself, which is the reason I removed all the centering springs from my joysticks - makes it easier to do minute corrections around the center zone. Though this depends largely on centering mechanism used on the stick. Saitek's centering method just sucks, single gimbal plate just doesn't offer even tension right around the deadzone, leading to problems with static friction locking the stick onto one place, then you increase force and the friction shift to kinetic and you overshoot the small movement you wanted to make...

[Mongoose]

And tactile feedback is overrated unless you actually have a well functioning force feedback stick - centering force just doesn't typically represent the forces on airplane controls. You can get all the feedback you need from visual and aural cues from the game itself, which is the reason I removed all the centering springs from my joysticks - makes it easier to do minute corrections around the center zone. Though this depends largely on centering mechanism used on the stick. Saitek's centering method just sucks, single gimbal plate just doesn't offer even tension right around the deadzone, leading to problems with static friction locking the stick onto one place, then you increase force and the friction shift to kinetic and you overshoot the small movement you wanted to make...

...thus my drunk-fu flying skillz in FS.

[Satellight]

I use the Thrustmaster T-16000 (Review here) and I am very happy of it. Alas it has no force feedback, but otherwise it is awesome !

[Dilmah G]

Doesn't look too bad, but that throttle's looking a bit weak.