Author Topic: Question for the astronomers around here  (Read 5811 times)

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Offline Mika

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Question for the astronomers around here
Been recently thinking about a couple measurements in Astronomy and possible error sources to them. Unfortunately, I never attended any course of Astronomy during the studies.

So, my first question is, does anyone have a good link on the error estimations on what happens when a neighboring galaxy is imaged? The actual form of the galaxy will be distorted because the light coming the edge of the galaxy must travel a longer distance. But how much will it be distorted is the question I'm after? I know that the answer depends on the galactic rotation speed too, but the thing what I'd like to know is that how well is the shape of the galaxy actually known?

Second question is the effect of the large centers of masses in the middle of the galaxies. This will distort the ray paths, but how big will that distortion be? The question is related to the fact that photon never tells where it originally came from. It will only tell the last apparent direction it was coming from.
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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
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Offline Snail

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
I hope that answers your question(s).

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
If distances and angles are supposed to be nearly correct, the only concern at that point would be predicting what will propagation of uncertainty causes when calculating areas, volumes, motion, etc. etc.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
I do know there is a rather large margin of error involved when calculating distances of astronomical objects.

 

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
And propagation of uncertainty makes the situation worse.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Umm, I'm not sure what you mean by propagation of uncertainity?

Flipside, what sort of marginals are we talking about here? 1% or 20%?

It is kind of weird to think about that the light coming from the edge of the galaxy was sent ~ 100 000 years (depends on the diameter of the galaxy) earlier than the light coming from the center!
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Unless it's one of the face-on galaxies that make the prettiest pictures.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
measure a box, it has a length of 50" +/- 2", width of 120 +/- 5" and depth of 320 +/-6"

min 48x115x314  vol:1733280

max 52x125x326 vol:2119000

the box's volume is 1926140 in^3 +/- 192860 in^3

cbrt(192860) = ~58"

a margin of error averaging less than 5" for each dimension results in a cubic volume error that would be 58" on a side.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Thought so, but wasn't sure.

I usually would do that kind of error estimation with differentials. As in

V = x*y*z
dV = y*z*dx + x*z*dy + x*y*dz
and then step out from the differential limit to get the actual deltas there.

It would be interesting to see the mathematical formulation of how the the radius of galaxy is computed from the measurement results - including the instrument errors. I wouldn't like to do the differentiation for that though...
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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
oww oww oww oww
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Offline Mika

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Should I take the lack of replies as an indication that there aren't astronomers around here?

Another fundamental question that has came back to bug me is that how great is the rate of expansion of the universe, and does it affect everything equally? I would expect so, but I'm not sure.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Current hubble constant is believed to be 70 km/sec/mpec, with an uncertainty of 10%. The rate of recession increases the farther away an object is from any given reference point, so distant objects recede from us more rapidly (for any location of 'us'.)

When the velocity of recession exceeds C you've hit the horizon of our Hubble volume, which is steadily contracting because the rate of expansion seems to be increasing.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
I meant that according to the General Relativity every single point in space is a source of "new" space, and those new spaces become yet again sources of "new" "new" space. Every point acts in a similar fashion at least in absence of other forms of energy, though I'm not sure what happens when there is energy, for example gravitational potential, that curves the manifold. I do understand that the recession speed increases naturally due to the above reason. The result is indeed that at some point of time, there is no way to get from star A to star B given that the current laws hold and that the distance is great enough. If that is true is another thing, though.

But the question was related to the distorted manifold, is new space created there equally from each point, independent on the distance to the gravitational potential / any energy?
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Offline watsisname

Re: Question for the astronomers around here
When dealing with extragalactic distances, a margin of error of +/- 20% is usually considered good enough, though this is always improving with better measurements of supernovae and cepheid variables. 

As for the original question,

Been recently thinking about a couple measurements in Astronomy and possible error sources to them. Unfortunately, I never attended any course of Astronomy during the studies.

So, my first question is, does anyone have a good link on the error estimations on what happens when a neighboring galaxy is imaged? The actual form of the galaxy will be distorted because the light coming the edge of the galaxy must travel a longer distance. But how much will it be distorted is the question I'm after? I know that the answer depends on the galactic rotation speed too, but the thing what I'd like to know is that how well is the shape of the galaxy actually known?

Put simply, the amount of distortion caused by the light-travel time across a galaxy is "not that much".  Consider our galaxy, viewed edge-on from afar.  The width of our galaxy is about 100,000 light years, so the distant observer sees the nearside as being about 100,000 years younger than the farside.  Now compare that figure to the time it takes for a star to orbit the galaxy.  For the sun, that's about 200 million years, or about a factor of 2,000 longer.  So you don't see much difference in a galaxy's appearance due to the light-travel delay.

As an aside, one really cool measurement we can do with edge-on galaxies is line up a spectroscopic slit with the disk of the galaxy, which lets us directly measure the rotation speed of the galaxy as a function of distance from the center.  We can quite literally see the rotation of galaxies this way. :)

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Second question is the effect of the large centers of masses in the middle of the galaxies. This will distort the ray paths, but how big will that distortion be? The question is related to the fact that photon never tells where it originally came from. It will only tell the last apparent direction it was coming from.

This question is tougher.  If we know the mass-distribution of a galaxy (which we can figure out from rotation curves), then we can use General Relativity to calculate precisely how much distortion is in the image due to the gravitational field of the galaxy.  I honestly don't know how significant that would be, but my gut feeling is, again, "not much" for a single galaxy.

That said, we do see this type of distortion to great effect when viewing objects located behind a large cluster of foreground galaxies.  Check this Astronomy Pic of the Day for an example, or just google image search "gravitational lensing".  These make excellent examples of the fact that light-rays are curved by gravity.  Or more accurately, light always travels in straight lines in 4-dimensional space-time, but space-time is distorted by the presence of mass. :P
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
That lensing photo is utterly fascinating...

 
Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Hello, professional astronomer in training here.  Hopefully I can answer your questions.  watsisname already got the first one, and was basically correct on the second.  For a single galaxy at cosmological distances, it's not much.  The deflection angle is given by α = 4*G*M/(c^2*b) for b >> M, where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the deflecting object, c is the speed of light, and b is the impact parameter, or distance of the light ray from the center of mass at closest approach.  Note that this assumes the Schwarzschild metric, which describes an eternal spherically symmetric mass in a pure vacuum.  Still, it's good enough for most situations you'll find when applying GR, and it's good enough here.  So, for the Milky Way, with its mass of about 1 trillion solar masses, and assuming the light just grazes the disk (b = 50,000 ly), we find that α is about 1E-5 rad, or all of 3 arcseconds.  That ain't much by any standard, and there probably won't be any major distortions in the apparent size or shape of the background object.

For error propagation, just remember this formula.  Say the quantity you want to measure is a function of several variables, say F(x,y,z,...).  Then, the error on F is just

S_F^2 = (dF/dx)^2*S_x^2 + (dF/dy)^2*S_y^2 + ...

Where the various S's are the uncertainties on each variable.  Note that the derivatives are partial, not total derivatives, and that this gives the variance, not standard deviation (take the square root to get that).  Therefore, for the box example Bobboau posted earlier, we get an error of ~120,000 in.^3.  The first two significant figures are the only ones with any meaning on an error estimate.

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Totally crazy off the side thing here (i'm not an astronomer either) but I've been reading recently that were not quite sure how even the universe is anyways so space could be stretched, warped, curved or otherwise deformed between us and another galaxy which could throw things further off too. The effect might be subtle or it might be larger but sometimes I wonder if we really know.

I hadn't thought about it but it is wild to consider that light from one side of a distant galaxy arrived thousands of years before light from the other side of that galaxy. Man that broke my brain for a moment. The universe is so very difficult to comprehend.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Question for the astronomers around here
One comment on the error estimations, every University seems to have their own favorite techniques. I mainly used summed absolute values instead of summed squared values. On top of that everything had to be rounded by a rather arbitrary 15 significant unit rule. I have a suspicion why they did that though, the laboratory equipment was antiquated but at least it taught the error estimation rather nicely. Each of the techniques has its merits and drawbacks. Though I haven't used the 15 significant unit rule after graduation for sure.

From the Optics point of view, it would be interesting to know if gravitational lensing exhibits similar kind of aberrations as the normal thin lenses do. Three arcsecs doesn't sound much, but on the other hand we are talking about astronomical stuff here and those are pretty big numbers. So I can't yet tell if from a long distance way it could be significant, but as I said Astronomy is a field of Physics that I skipped in the University.

Then a question about the spectrometric measurements. Some spectrometers that I have worked with required a calibration marker, a short spectrum that is definitely known, preferably slightly outside of the spectrum of the object to be measured. Does it work the same way in astronomy too, and if it does, what is the spectral reference marker used in astronomy? Is it in the object to be measured or a completely different measurement?

Third thing that bothers me now is the effect of dust on the apparent sizes of stellar objects.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 
Re: Question for the astronomers around here
Totally crazy off the side thing here (i'm not an astronomer either) but I've been reading recently that were not quite sure how even the universe is anyways so space could be stretched, warped, curved or otherwise deformed between us and another galaxy which could throw things further off too. The effect might be subtle or it might be larger but sometimes I wonder if we really know.

I hadn't thought about it but it is wild to consider that light from one side of a distant galaxy arrived thousands of years before light from the other side of that galaxy. Man that broke my brain for a moment. The universe is so very difficult to comprehend.
Actually, we have the "evenness" of the universe nailed down pretty well.  If it weren't fairly even, we would expect to see differences in how things looked when we looked at different areas of the sky.  Since we don't see anything of the kind (instead, the universe looks roughly identical whichever direction you look), we can safely assume the universe has pretty much the same curvature everywhere (other measurements show it to be flat or nearly so as well).  We can also obtain some idea of the curvature by looking how distorted a galaxy appears.  Since we have plenty of nearby galaxies to compare with, we can be pretty sure when we're looking at one that is being gravitationally lensed or what have you based on the statistics.

One comment on the error estimations, every University seems to have their own favorite techniques. I mainly used summed absolute values instead of summed squared values. On top of that everything had to be rounded by a rather arbitrary 15 significant unit rule. I have a suspicion why they did that though, the laboratory equipment was antiquated but at least it taught the error estimation rather nicely. Each of the techniques has its merits and drawbacks. Though I haven't used the 15 significant unit rule after graduation for sure.
15 sig figs?  How goddamn accurate were your equipment and measurements?!  That's just about the most amazing accuracy I've ever heard of (the most accurately determined value in physics, the g-factor of the electron, is known to something like 20 sig figs).  I think I managed six or seven in my spectroscopy lab.  For the absolute value sum, what kind of error were you calculating?  The sum of squares is mathematically the only way to do it for different factors correlated in the way I described.

Quote
From the Optics point of view, it would be interesting to know if gravitational lensing exhibits similar kind of aberrations as the normal thin lenses do. Three arcsecs doesn't sound much, but on the other hand we are talking about astronomical stuff here and those are pretty big numbers. So I can't yet tell if from a long distance way it could be significant, but as I said Astronomy is a field of Physics that I skipped in the University.
A shift of 3", while noticeable, isn't necessarily that big.  Most systems studied in astronomy are at least several arcminutes wide, so a few arcseconds is at least an order of magnitude smaller, sometimes two (compared to the angular diameter of a big galaxy cluster, for example).  As for aberrations, maybe; I don't know.  They would be described differently than optical ones, however, because a gravitational lens' power increases the smaller the impact parameter is, the opposite of what an optical lens will have.

Quote
Then a question about the spectrometric measurements. Some spectrometers that I have worked with required a calibration marker, a short spectrum that is definitely known, preferably slightly outside of the spectrum of the object to be measured. Does it work the same way in astronomy too, and if it does, what is the spectral reference marker used in astronomy? Is it in the object to be measured or a completely different measurement?
You always need a calibration spectrum to determine radial velocities (Doppler shifts).  What is used depends on the accuracy required and the application.  My current research is on improving planet detection, which currently uses iodine as a reference spectrum (if this results in a published paper, I can let the board know if people end up being interested enough).  In order to eliminate systematic errors resulting from unequal optical paths taken by the reference and observed spectra, the iodine is placed in the optical path of the spectrometer, just after the light enters it.  This superimposes the iodine's spectral lines, which are NOT shifted in any way (very important thing for a reference!), on the observed spectrum.  Measuring the distances between all the iodine lines establishes a wavelength scale* for the spectrum.  Then we can measure the positions of each line in the observed spectrum on the CCD, thereby getting their wavelengths, and compare this to the wavelengths as measured in a lab on Earth.  This tells us the Doppler shift of the object, and thus its radial velocity with respect to us.

For less demanding applications, a thorium-argon emission lamp is used which has a separate optical path to the CCD.  The analysis proceeds as above.  However, large systematic errors are incurred because of the differing optical paths used by the reference and object's spectrum.  Some spectrometers eliminate this by using fiber optic cables to equalize the optical path length of both systems, which brings the precision up to levels comparable to that given using iodine.  Right now, the best precision achieved is something like 3 m/s, IIRC (it might be as low as 1 m/s).

For just determining what an object is made of, no reference spectrum is necessary when the exposure is taken.  Because the pattern of lines will always be the same no matter the Doppler shift, the pattern in the observed spectrum is just compared to patterns in spectra taken in labs on Earth.

*The wavelength scale is just how many pixels correspond to a given difference in wavelength, so it could be given as something like 5 pixels/nanometer or something (don't know a typical one off the top of my head, sorry).

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Third thing that bothers me now is the effect of dust on the apparent sizes of stellar objects.
Almost nil.  There isn't enough of it out there to do anything really significant.