[NGTM-1R]

Because of the reasons listed above. The whole reason GD got pushed down to the bottom of HLP is because the discussions got too hot too fast too often. I'm trying to keep this discussion civil and moderated.

We're already about as moderated as this crowd will stand, with the lock-the-moment-the-drama-appears method in place. It's impossible to actually hold any real debate in GD anymore because someone will assume offense is being taken and lock the thread. This is despite the fact the people who were the ones most likely to take offense have all been political prisonered or monkeyed by now.

We're at least in college for the most part, and we expect to be treated in a fashion consistent with being capable of independent thought. We're not going to take much more moderation than we've already got, and your unilateral experiment in strict moderation is reminiscent of something from the 4Kids board. (I say this because I actually visited the place once to bomb a thread being run by someone plagiarizing a friend's writings.) If we're reduced to being treated like that in this thread, it's just going to die, or reduce to a flaming mass of ****posting because we've had enough.

Also, that's pretty revisionist history. The only valid reason GD got moved to the bottom was because it got focus and people wanted the board to be focused on FreeSpace. The current method of moderation was already in place before then, so there was no way for what you describe to still be occurring.

[Unknown Target]

Split from the US Congresswoman shooting thread, because while what you're saying doesn't pertain to the topic it was being posted in, I don't want you to think that I want to stifle discussion on HLP's moderation policies. It's a fair topic, just not one that belongs in a discussion on US politics.

Anyway, I have no idea about any lock/drama/etc. To be honest, I like the bit where you pointed out that we're college students and we're still treated like kids. That annoys me a lot as well, being a 21 year old student and enraged at a really stupid system.

That being said, all I'm attempting to do is keep a real debate in GD flowing by watching the shooting thread and trying to keep any angry rhetoric down.

[General Battuta]

I think there is a repeated error in your post where it says 'we' instead of 'i'

[iamzack]

it's only an error if no one agrees with him

[General Battuta]

Oh I actually do agree with him, I think he raises a very good point, but on the other hand he is a loving hilarious split between 60% reasonable and excellent contributor and 40% Trashman with better spelling which means he should probably not be speaking for the GenDisc crowd

my own personal feelings towards gendisc debate are torn between fear and loathing

[Unknown Target]

When I was referring to college students is the only time I used "we", Battuta. Since both NGTM-1R and I are college students, I fail to see the error you're describing.

[General Battuta]

When I was referring to college students is the only time I used "we", Battuta. Since both NGTM-1R and I are college students, I fail to see the error you're describing.

not talking to you

[NGTM-1R]

I think there is a repeated error in your post where it says 'we' instead of 'i'

The problem is you're presenting a false dichotomy. It doesn't matter on which side of the split you fall, I've seen the Lotka.org pulled before and it all goes down in flames one way or another.

(And actually I'm out of college and working now, but that's not really relevant.)

[General Battuta]

(And actually I'm out of college and working now, but that's not really relevant.)

hey me toooo look at this ****ing love connection!

and don't get me wrong I agree with the point you're making, it just luffs and luffs and luffs me that you're making it because while you have excellent escalation skills you descalate like a saturn V

[el_magnifico]

At last! I can't believe we're finally discussing this. And I have to travel tomorrow so I will be without internet for a week. ¬¬

Basically, as I have repeatedly stated, it is my opinion that moderation in GD (and in other forums in HLP too) overuses locks and monkeys (or whatever you call them now). And I think this new moderation policy is better, because it gives the members a chance to exercise self control and it gives the whole forum a chance to keep interesting threads going, instead of having them locked in two pages or less. It's also more frontal, which I appreciate.

[NGTM-1R]

and don't get me wrong I agree with the point you're making, it just luffs and luffs and luffs me that you're making it because while you have excellent escalation skills you descalate like a saturn V

I rarely have a choice in the matter these days.

(I understand you may have trouble detecting a splitlock. Karaj has admitted as much since global mods/admins can still post so they just click mindlessly. )

[General Battuta]

I will sit down and EFFORT into considering your problems the day I see you concede a single point without sidestepping and using the emote

not that I should be talking because I am a tragic space hulk fueled by rage but I do intermittently manage to contain the DRAMA

[NGTM-1R]

I will sit down and EFFORT into considering your problems the day I see you concede a single point without sidestepping and using the emote

You could just assume silence is concession like everyone else.

Alternately, you could look around. It's been done before. I'm pretty sure I even used the line "but ignore me, I'm the idiot in the grey jacket" a few times.

EDIT BECAUSE RECURSIVE SPLITLOCK IS BAD: I really have to disagree with el_magnifico, since, like I said, it reeks of being treated like a child. It also doesn't work. People won't log in for a socratic seminar and a stated direction is highly prone to abuse.

[General Battuta]

it is possible that it was before my time, i shall admit

in any case threads would require less splitlocking if there were not particular areas of debate that did not so inevitably and predictably lead to the exact same conclusion

[Unknown Target]

I would venture to say both parties are at fault here in some way. The mods might be overusing locks and monkeys, whereas the forum users might be too ready to jump at one another and less willing to simply not post in a thread if they can't say anything without directing it at the other person.

Would anyone disagree with the idea that their side is as much at fault as the other's?

[NGTM-1R]

in any case threads would require less splitlocking if there were not particular areas of debate that did not so inevitably and predictably lead to the exact same conclusion

I think the problem with this statement is that, the majority of the time, there's no way to support it. We've never actually completed a tactics argument, you and I, or even gotten down to real details. It just gets splitlocked. You can't know how it will end because you've never been there. Something similar can be said about the GD discussions that are habitually splitlocked; the crowd has changed and you can no longer know the ending based on past experience.

[General Battuta]

maybe it's just the determinist in me but it feels like most of the time you can tell how an argument is going to end six posts in, and yeah, if i see One of Those popping up i'll just spitlock it (heck if i had my druthers I'd just delete but other people seem to have 'standards' and 'conduct')

i suppooooooose i could do it less but on the other hand i...don't do it much so

also i feel like this is not really an issue for most of the forum(ites)

I would venture to say both parties are at fault here in some way. The mods might be overusing locks and monkeys

locks maybe, but mods can't monkey and monkeys are terribly rare, so i don't really know where el is coming from there

we were asked to moderate more tightly a while back and so it has been

anyway this is srs discussion for srs forum and i cba'ed to press shift soooo: gentlemen!

[el_magnifico]

EDIT BECAUSE RECURSIVE SPLITLOCK IS BAD: I really have to disagree with el_magnifico, since, like I said, it reeks of being treated like a child. It also doesn't work. People won't log in for a socratic seminar and a stated direction is highly prone to abuse.

We seem to have differing concepts of what "being treated like a child" is. I feel treated like a child when someone jumps in a thread and says "Uh, bad boys, you will hurt yourselves playing with this, I will lock it". And I feel treated in a bad way when a mod keeps posting and addressing other members after they've locked the thread.
On the other hand, when someone actually uses their authority in a respectable way, I feel more inclined to comply. Am I right in assuming we both agree in that authority is a necessary thing? Even if we disagree on how authority should be applied, and what limits it should have?

I would venture to say both parties are at fault here in some way. The mods might be overusing locks and monkeys, whereas the forum users might be too ready to jump at one another and less willing to simply not post in a thread if they can't say anything without directing it at the other person.

Would anyone disagree with the idea that their side is as much at fault as the other's?

It may be, but it's still worth the try to apply a different moderating policy, and see what happens.

[Flipside]

Moderators are human too, I have seen occasions where a Moderator posting as a member of the boards has been mistaken for a Moderater in some way representing the boards position.

The hard part is, and always will be, differenciating behaviour from opinion, an offensive opinion does not neccessarily require locking unless it is presented in an offensive manner, and that's something that is the responsibility of the poster, however, Moderators, I feel, also need to be careful to be certain why they are locking the thread, is it because it contains people who are offensive, or opinions that they find offensive? It's a lot harder question to answer than many posters realise.

Considering some of the reasons people have found to report posts on occasion, it's quite obvious that people don't always understand the job that Moderators are supposed to do, but that's ok, I'm not certain I fully understand the job I'm supposed to be doing, it's just really a question of making sure the discussion stays civil and polite, and even that isn't easy because different people, even different countries, have different opinions on what is 'civil and polite'.

As an example, I remember a comment a long time ago that went along the lines of 'You are either just trolling, or you don't know what you are talking about'. That, to some sections of the board would be considered a perfectly acceptable comment, to other members of the board it's offensive, because its effectively calling the person an idiot, just using a lot of words to do so, so it always helps to re-read your posts before actually submitting them and trying to empathise with the person reading it

[el_magnifico]

Moderators are human too, I have seen occasions where a Moderator posting as a member of the boards has been mistaken for a Moderater in some way representing the boards position.

Then I could even go as far as recommending using two different accounts: One for your "regular member" persona, and one exclusively for moderation. Like it or not, when you express an opinion on a hot topic, and then act upon that opinion, people will tend to believe it's a staff opinion and period, and will see that as authoritarian. At least changing your "uniform" will help a little.

Well, I have a lot of things to do and it's quite late here already. I will check this thread in the morning.