[Kosh]

They fired three profs and shut down the entire department over one student project? One that was given a failing grade anyway?

I had better expectations of you, Turkey.

Because Turkey is still an Islamic country. While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.

[General Battuta]

They fired three profs and shut down the entire department over one student project? One that was given a failing grade anyway?

I had better expectations of you, Turkey.

Because Turkey is still an Islamic country.

I am actually a pro total expert on Turkey because of where my forum handle came from and it is determinedly anti-Muslim in terms of its government and policy. In fact its military is constitutionally obligated to overthrow the government (and has done so) if religious sorts gain too much political power.

If you want to overcome your shocking laaaaameitude and gain some pro respect points read this to learn all about how Turkey was determinedly super-secular but has been slipping in the last couple decades.

While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.

god i've had to explain this so many times, it's because they were butt****ed by colonialism and europe being awesome, not because they were too busy performing five daily prayers to get **** done

if being muslim made you **** at stuff explain how greek civilization survived the middle ages

yeah i thought so

yeah

here if you want to be cool read all this ****ing ****

[NGTM-1R]

Turkey isn't very Muslim at all and hasn't been since Ataturk got done with it. It has a lot more culturally in common with Europe than it does with its neighbors to the south and southeast.

[Kosh]

They fired three profs and shut down the entire department over one student project? One that was given a failing grade anyway?

I had better expectations of you, Turkey.

Because Turkey is still an Islamic country.

I am actually a pro total expert on Turkey because of where my forum handle came from and it is determinedly anti-Muslim in terms of its government and policy. In fact its military is constitutionally obligated to overthrow the government (and has done so) if religious sorts gain too much political power.

If you want to overcome your shocking laaaaameitude and gain some pro respect points read this to learn all about how Turkey was determinedly super-secular but has been slipping in the last couple decades.

While not nearly as whackey as several others in the region, they are still behind most other parts of Europe.

god i've had to explain this so many times, it's because they were butt****ed by colonialism and europe being awesome, not because they were too busy performing five daily prayers to get **** done

if being muslim made you **** at stuff explain how greek civilization survived the middle ages

yeah i thought so

yeah

here if you want to be cool read all this ****ing ****

Turkish government is secular but the society is not, which is really what this whole issue is about. There really aren't too many countries that manage to score lower than the US in terms of popular acceptance of evolution, but is it really a surprise that by a fairly wide margin Turkey is one of them? see for yourself. Remember that survey was the US + Japan + Europe + Turkey, btw.

Oh, and since you claim Turkish society is so modern, perhaps you'd care to explain all the so called honor killings? Based on this, it wasn't until 2006 that Turkey even had a law requiring mandatory life sentences for this, and that only happened as a requirement for their application for EU membership. Before that men who committed honor killings were given very light sentences, if any at all. From that article I'll quote a couple of examples:

And in a darkened room a young man, who had shot his stepmother and her lover, said that prison guards and inmates treated him with respect.  He spent two and half years in jail.

In that same village, a young bride had her eyes gouged out, her tongue cut, her body cut into pieces, and then burned by a jealous husband who is serving 5 years.

Notice the absurdly light sentences? 2.5 years for a double murder? 5 years for the torture and murder of a women? Are you seriously going sit there and tell me that THIS is equal to europe?

And yeah we know all about the golden age, but you forget to mention that it ended 700 YEARS AGO. Hardly applicable to today.

[General Battuta]

:words:

i know everything in this post and have known it for years i am sorry you had to waste the words on it

Oh, and since you claim Turkish society is so modern

can you even read

i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS

soon you will figure it out and i will be sooo haaaappy and we can make a root beer float and drink it

here i'm gonna help you

And yeah we know all about the golden age, but you forget to mention that it ended 700 YEARS AGO. Hardly applicable to today.

you're almost there you're so close just a little further let's use MATH

if islam * good conditions = golden age

and islam * bad conditions = and then burned by a jealous husband who is serving 5 years

then we can factor 'islam' out and what we are left with is conditions

hmmmmmmmmmm i wonder

[Flipside]

I think the trick here is to seperate Archaic views and attitudes towards crime with Islam, the two items are not one and the same, just as 'being Islamic' doesn't neccesarily imply being out of touch any more than being non-Islamic means that a country must be forward-thinking.

Iirc, Turkey has a terrible human rights record, which is why it had such trouble getting into the EU, but I think we need to be careful not to confuse things. In my own experience in talking to Turkish people on holiday, Islam is a prominent religion, but it's in the background, much like Christianity in the UK, they pay their obligatory visit to the Mosque, and they pray when they have time, but for the main part it's just something that exists and isn't really a major influencing factor. That said, this opinion, as in the UK, may change as you head out into more rural areas.

[Kosh]

i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS

Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.

[General Battuta]

i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS

Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.

do you actually have a disability i need to be sensitive about? because if so now is the time to tell me.

[Kosh]

i'm just here to disconnect the part of your brain that makes you think islam makes any of this happen instead of ALL THE **** THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS

Show me an Islamic country on par with western Europe in terms of social values. Ooops, there aren't any. Imagine that.

do you actually have a disability i need to be sensitive about? because if so now is the time to tell me.

I'd take you a lot more seriously if you actually backed up the "islamic societies are equal" claims with real evidence instead of ad hominem attacks and general trolling.

[General Battuta]

i'd take you a lot more seriously if you were able to accurately describe a single claim I'd ever actually made

in fact that sounds like a good idea. could you please outline my argument for me so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain.

[Kosh]

So you don't deny that you've been trolling and making personal attacks?

[Scotty]

And I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you'd stop acting like an idiot whenever Islam is involved.

What part of "got butt****ed by colonialism" do you not understand?

Go on.  I'm curious.

If you can name me country that behaves in the way you describe that wasn't formerly a colony, I will be most impressed.

EDIT:  Two post in thirty seconds.  wow.

[General Battuta]

koshberator, seriously, it is this ****ing simple.

political turmoil, economic failure and the aftershocks of colonialism produce religious fundamentalism. political stability, economic prosperity and regional hegemony produce a golden age - whether for muslims 700 years ago or europeans more recently.

europe suffered through years of religious fundamentalism during the dark ages while the muslims were flourishing. the positions are now reversed. the religion is irrelevant.

So you don't deny that you've been trolling and making personal attacks?

welcome to being liberator. when you act like a religious fanatic unable to comprehend nuance, you'll be treated like a child.

[Kosh]

[size=18]political turmoil, economic failure and the aftershocks of colonialism produce religious fundamentalism. political stability, economic prosperity and regional hegemony produce a golden age - whether for muslims 700 years ago or europeans more recently.[/size]

Turkey WAS the dominant and you could say colonial power in the Islamic world from the fall of Constantinople all the way until the end of World War 1.

If you can name me country that behaves in the way you describe that wasn't formerly a colony, I will be most impressed.

Turkey was never a colony.


EDIT:

And I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you'd stop acting like an idiot whenever Islam is involved.

I'm pointing out something that appearently isn't popular: That islamic societies are, at best, several decades behind, especially in terms of women's rights. Why GB, who flamed one of his former bosses for saying sexist remarks, would then turn around and blindly defend societies that are so blatantly misogynistic is beyond me. To prove it to you, go ahead and post something about some stupid **** christianity has done and I'll be sure to go bash it. Why some of us would give islamic based societies a free pass for bull**** like sharia (which is not practiced in turkey btw) is a mystery to me.

[Flipside]

This is exactly what I was talking about in the Moderating thread.

So what am I expected to do? Lock it for the personal attacks? Leave it for the debate, or possibly the lulz?

[General Battuta]

[size=18]political turmoil, economic failure and the aftershocks of colonialism produce religious fundamentalism. political stability, economic prosperity and regional hegemony produce a golden age - whether for muslims 700 years ago or europeans more recently.[/size]

Turkey WAS the dominant and you could say colonial power in the Islamic world from the fall of Constantinople all the way until the end of World War 1.

turkey didn't exist; the ottoman empire was in power during this timeframe

If you can name me country that behaves in the way you describe that wasn't formerly a colony, I will be most impressed.

Turkey was never a colony.

the ottoman empire was an occupied state after it collapsed; that is entirely why the kemalist doctrine came to power

do this now:

in fact that sounds like a good idea. could you please outline my argument for me so I can figure out what is getting lost between your eyes and your brain.

you appear utterly unable to engage with the arguments presented to you; it is as if you do not read what is said, you simply hit 'quote' and fill in what you already believe. this has already led one member to be banned from gendisc; you could well end up the same.

[General Battuta]

I'm pointing out something that appearently isn't popular: That islamic societies are, at best, several decades behind, especially in terms of women's rights. Why GB, who flamed one of his former bosses for saying sexist remarks, would then turn around and blindly defend societies that are so blatantly misogynistic is beyond me. To prove it to you, go ahead and post something about some stupid **** christianity has done and I'll be sure to go bash it. Why some of us would give islamic based societies a free pass for bull**** like sharia (which is not practiced in turkey btw) is a mystery to me.

you've now had the answer explained to you in at least three different threads and still you believe that, let me directly quote you

Why GB, who flamed one of his former bosses for saying sexist remarks, would then turn around and blindly defend societies that are so blatantly misogynistic is beyond me

you think that this is what is actually happening and I do not understand the profound disconnect from reality required to believe this is what is being said to you

you are unable to understand that the religious doctrine is a symptom

a well-educated muslim (or christian) from a liberal society with a good economic background will not engage in this behavior. because it is not the religion that matters, it is the sociocultural complex behind it that matters.

islam is not the problem. religion is not the problem. fundamental religion only finds a toehold where immunities have been degraded.

[Goober5000]

Not that I'm taking sides in this discussion, but Battuta, it's not necessary to go completely apoplectic and forget how to use grammar in order to participate in a discussion.

Also, pay attention to Flipside.

Also, there was no such thing as the Dark Ages.

[General Battuta]

grammar appears fine and apoplexy appears absent, i just dgaf

the dark ages point is a fair one; there was obviously a fair bit actually going on beyond 'bring out your dead', but there's no question that europe fell behind during that period

[Kosh]

you appear utterly unable to engage with the arguments presented to you; it is as if you do not read what is said, you simply hit 'quote' and fill in what you already believe. this has already led one member to be banned from gendisc; you could well end up the same.

Yep, straight from the horses mouth, it's perfectly acceptable for moderators to make personal attacks and troll. I'm going to walk away from this thread for a short time rather than continue to feed GB's trolling.

Not that I'm taking sides in this discussion, but Battuta, it's not necessary to go completely apoplectic and forget how to use grammar in order to participate in a discussion.

Do I sense a Grammar Inquisition?