[sayoqod]

Economy is cyclical, so is history. The point is not that things will be horrible forever, the point is whether or not America is financially sound enough to weather the bad times if they get much worse. Just because we live in modern times doesn't mean nations are safe from the cycles of history. America is in bad shape, and its gonna take a lot of work to pull through this in one piece

Oh, I'm not arguing that some people have some work to do. But it all boils down to Darwinism, really. If we can't make it through a trough on the cycle....we don't deserve to. And life will go on.

[iamzack]

noooooooo social darwinism baaad :<

[sayoqod]

noooooooo social darwinism baaad :<

Bad in the sense that it's cruel? Yes.

Such is life.

[Mars]

I kind of doubt the US will suddenly be thrown into full third world conditions. The current government might collapse eventually, but it takes a lot of work to totally destroy the infrastructure.

[iamzack]

noooooooo social darwinism baaad :<

Bad in the sense that it's cruel? Yes.

Such is life.

Bad in the sense that our society works best when we do everything we can to go against the whole darwinism thing.

[sayoqod]

Bad in the sense that our society works best when we do everything we can to go against the whole darwinism thing.

Depends on your definition of 'best', really

[SpardaSon21]

I don't exactly think that $4 a gallon caused the housing market to collapse...

Four-dollars-per-gallon probably didn't have a significant effect, but at a certain price-point, people start considering accomodations closer to their jobs, local government offices, and businesses.  In other words, given a sufficient spike in gas prices, the suburbs start to empty, and urban housing gets packed.  It's not necessarily a formula for a total collapse of the housing market, but in the case of a sustained increase in fuel prices, the whole paradigm of build-out-not-up would have to get turned on its ear.

I can't be the only one who sees that as a good thing.

Cities are crowded, smelly places, and people still drive cars in places like New York despite the traffic caused by the cramped conditions.

[Drogoth]

I kind of doubt the US will suddenly be thrown into full third world conditions. The current government might collapse eventually, but it takes a lot of work to totally destroy the infrastructure.

The American literacy rate is falling, and the middle class is actively shrinking, infrastructure crumbling, while debt sky rockets.

Falling literacy and an actively shrinking middle class are horrifying in a developed nation, and by definition are a backspin into third world conditions if they progress unchecked. Fact of the matter is, first world developed nations do NOT have falling literacy and shrinking middle classes. Since both those things are examples of a positive nation when rising and a failing state when falling.

Third world in the sense of sub-saharan africa? I doubt it. Third world in the sense of lack of education and socio-economic future? If things aren't changed then yes. It depends on what you define as 'third world'

[iamzack]

I don't exactly think that $4 a gallon caused the housing market to collapse...

Four-dollars-per-gallon probably didn't have a significant effect, but at a certain price-point, people start considering accomodations closer to their jobs, local government offices, and businesses.  In other words, given a sufficient spike in gas prices, the suburbs start to empty, and urban housing gets packed.  It's not necessarily a formula for a total collapse of the housing market, but in the case of a sustained increase in fuel prices, the whole paradigm of build-out-not-up would have to get turned on its ear.

I can't be the only one who sees that as a good thing.

Cities are crowded, smelly places, and people still drive cars in places like New York despite the traffic caused by the cramped conditions.

Yes, but public transportation becomes reasonable and good (unlike the shoddy excuse for a bus system we have here). There are fewer roads to build and maintain (and other things that are similar, like power lines and sewer systems and water pipes and such). Access to a wide variety of health services for more people is another plus.

I mean, yeah, there are a lot of downsides, but it's not like horizontal space is infinite. We have to use it efficiently.

[Mikes]

I kind of doubt the US will suddenly be thrown into full third world conditions. The current government might collapse eventually, but it takes a lot of work to totally destroy the infrastructure.

Actually... it doesn't take any work at all. Only takes neglect.

[WeatherOp]

I don't exactly think that $4 a gallon caused the housing market to collapse...

Of course it didn't, but the events coincided fairly nicely, which was my attempt to illustrate how the economy won't magically epic-collapse if gas hits $4 again while we're in a recession.

While I agree it won't just all of sudden epically collapse, I don't see how our weak economy won't sink even farther back into a deeper more prolonged recession. Too many people on un-employment, heck the retail markets have been gaining what a percent or two a month. Food prices are soaring, and higher fuel prices will only add to that. Then add a bigger strain on companies on people not ordering their products and the price to ship it will in turn create more layoffs.

I'm normally an optimist, but I see no Republican or Democrat or anyone in between who can fix whats coming. We need to keep oil prices down to give our economy a chance. But, it seams like for every little good news, oil wants to rise. The sad part is that is not even adding in nation debt our wonderful fat politicians have added. Maybe we should decrease our politicians salaries to the level of local town governments. Maybe then we could get some good people in there.

[iamzack]

I don't exactly think that $4 a gallon caused the housing market to collapse...

Of course it didn't, but the events coincided fairly nicely, which was my attempt to illustrate how the economy won't magically epic-collapse if gas hits $4 again while we're in a recession.

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE! Of Course there's causality between those co-incidental events! That's BasIc CorreLationist tHeory! We're all gonna die! It's the End of Days! My Toes Itch! 9-12 was an outside job! gyaaaaahhhhhhh!

</nervousbreakdown>

4$ gas may not bring about the end of the world as we know it, but, speaking as someone who has to drive 10 miles to the corner store, it's sure gonna suck big time.

I don't exactly think that $4 a gallon caused the housing market to collapse...

Of course it didn't, but the events coincided fairly nicely, which was my attempt to illustrate how the economy won't magically epic-collapse if gas hits $4 again while we're in a recession.

While I agree it won't just all of sudden epically collapse, I don't see how our weak economy won't sink even farther back into a deeper more prolonged recession. Too many people on un-employment, heck the retail markets have been gaining what a percent or two a month. Food prices are soaring, and higher fuel prices will only add to that. Then add a bigger strain on companies on people not ordering their products and the price to ship it will in turn create more layoffs.

I'm normally an optimist, but I see no Republican or Democrat or anyone in between who can fix whats coming. We need to keep oil prices down to give our economy a chance. But, it seams like for every little good news, oil wants to rise. The sad part is that is not even adding in nation debt our wonderful fat politicians have added. Maybe we should decrease our politicians salaries to the level of local town governments. Maybe then we could get some good people in there.

That's what happens when we as a society normalize 2+ cars per family, look down on public transportation as something only poor people use, tear up railroad tracks, insist on living in houses many miles from work/school/post offices/everything else, et cetera et cetera.

American values are coming back to bite us in the ass.

[BloodEagle]

Holy Hell, Zack made a good point. 

[Drogoth]

I think it was the 'American Values' combined with a collection of bad political choices. Because heads up, America is not the only country with an American-esque culture, but the other ones are in far better shape

[Mikes]

I think it was the 'American Values' combined with a collection of bad political choices. Because heads up, America is not the only country with an American-esque culture, but the other ones are in far better shape

As far as "western industrialized nations" go, America really is unique in its capitalistic/free market extremism.

The only reason the Democrats get called "Left Wing" is because they are "slightly Less extremist Right Wing" than the Republicans. And of course everything more Left Wing than the Democrats must be Socalism or even worse, Communism....

And I'm not talking hearsay here...  but rather about a measurable (through statistics) and documented (through culture studies) fact of American culture.
Both of the big parties in America are so far right that any kind of party that actually WAS "balanced" or god forbid "Left Wing" (as the rest of the world sees it) simply isn t compatible with American culture.

As far as the trend of unchaining capitalism from its political/democratic oversight goes, i also really do not think it matters all that much which of both parties is in power.
We might be talking about a difference in "speed"... but certainly not in "direction".

 

[bobbtmann]

I think it was the 'American Values' combined with a collection of bad political choices. Because heads up, America is not the only country with an American-esque culture, but the other ones are in far better shape

I don't think political choices are so much of a problem. Political choices are influenced heavily by the society the politicians are a part of. So a society that has self destructive values will have politics that reflect those values.

For instance, Canada shares many of the same values as the US ( consumerism, wastefullness, desire for growth), but there's one big difference: Space. Our country is much bigger and and has a lower population than the US. So where these destructive values are creating problems elsewhere, Canada has still has land and resources to destroy. Once they're gone, then we'll be in the same boat.

[Drogoth]

I think it was the 'American Values' combined with a collection of bad political choices. Because heads up, America is not the only country with an American-esque culture, but the other ones are in far better shape

I don't think political choices are so much of a problem. Political choices are influenced heavily by the society the politicians are a part of. So a society that has self destructive values will have politics that reflect those values.

For instance, Canada shares many of the same values as the US ( consumerism, wastefullness, desire for growth), but there's one big difference: Space. Our country is much bigger and and has a lower population than the US. So where these destructive values are creating problems elsewhere, Canada has still has land and resources to destroy. Once they're gone, then we'll be in the same boat.

The problems associated with America culture have almost succeeded in destroying America because they were unchecked an unmonitored.

Plentiful resources isn't the reason Canada is in better shape then the states. Canada monitors is business's (notably its financial sector) much more tightly then the states. The Canadians are currently boasting one of the best economies in the world, and that comes down to far deeper reasons then they have a bunch of stuff.

[bobbtmann]

Canada's economy is heavily invested in the primary sector, though.  The main point I'm trying to make is that these political decisions are heavily dependant on the society in question.

For the most part, having more regulation is a good decision. So a politician in the US decides the same thing and proposes a piece of legislation to regulate, say, the banks. It may be a good decision, but it won't pass into law because it's a smart move. It'll get passed into law if it jives with the majority's values. If ideologies, no matter how ignorant, get in the way with sufficient force, it won't succeed. Likewise, bad political decisions have a lot to do with the culture in question, the people the politician is surrounded with.

[iamzack]

Why do all the good countries have to be in cold climates? :[

[Drogoth]

Canada's economy is heavily invested in the primary sector, though.  The main point I'm trying to make is that these political decisions are heavily dependant on the society in question.

For the most part, having more regulation is a good decision. So a politician in the US decides the same thing and proposes a piece of legislation to regulate, say, the banks. It may be a good decision, but it won't pass into law because it's a smart move. It'll get passed into law if it jives with the majority's values. If ideologies, no matter how ignorant, get in the way with sufficient force, it won't succeed. Likewise, bad political decisions have a lot to do with the culture in question, the people the politician is surrounded with.

See I agree with you entirely on why the decisions were made.

What I dispute is that that Canada is on the same path and just has more time because of stuff.  The political values and ideologies that run the country are so fundamentally different from those that prevail in America. Thats what makes the difference, not the amount of oil in one country or another