[NGTM-1R]

The fact that subversion is necessary at all points to the existence of a problem, which is the central argument of this article.

I never argued there wasn't. I argued that the article is not offering any useful information to solve the problem, and in fact makes certain assumptions which would seem to indicate a bigger one.

[StarSlayer]

Nondescript coveralls and high n' tights for everyone!

[General Battuta]

The fact that subversion is necessary at all points to the existence of a problem, which is the central argument of this article.

I never argued there wasn't. I argued that the article is not offering any useful information to solve the problem, and in fact makes certain assumptions which would seem to indicate a bigger one.

Just offering the information required to identify the problem is probably a service to most readers.

[karajorma]

Women are almost treated like a minority in this issue. Any woman frequently represents all women, whether doing a math problem in front of people or parallel parking. The way one woman dresses, speaks, acts, etc too often brings on comments about the way "women" are. We get token females across genres the same way we get token blacks or gays, but the difference is that *half* the population is female.

That's pretty applicable to men though. Maybe not as much but still to a very large degree.

A guy cheats, "All men are bastards!', etc. If you've never tried dating as a guy you've got no idea how hard it is to get past deeply held perceptions of what "men" are like. I've tended to find that girls try to pigeonhole guys just as much as they complain about it being done to them.

[iamzack]

Ehh... iunno. I've been exposed to a lot of well developed male characters in the media of varying races, orientations, religions, intelligence levels, levels of attractiveness, age, etc. It's as hard for me to conjure a stereotypical "guy"in my head as a stereotypical image of a white person.

[QuantumDelta]

Mika, it wasn't at you, I read no posts in the thread, merely the article, feminism and similar **** drives me round the bend, no matter how veiled.
It's just as bad as any guy being sexist, but because the women doing it often feel threatened or less-than they feel justified that they can be sexist and point out the 'injustices' they percieve without fear of reprise.

Similarly, the "Politically correct" crap, which, in it's original form, was LOVELY, but has basically turned into a petty rable over who can nitpick and ban the most words or phrases in the pursuit of one goal or another that they will never reach so long as they address the symptom, and not the problem.


Edit;
And Karajorma is mentioning a similar form to what I'm talking about.

[General Battuta]

Mika, it wasn't at you, I read no posts in the thread, merely the article, feminism and similar **** drives me round the bend, no matter how veiled.
It's just as bad as any guy being sexist, but because the women doing it often feel threatened or less-than they feel justified that they can be sexist and point out the 'injustices' they percieve without fear of reprise.

Feminism is about gender equality. The fact that women are in most domains lagging means they get the lion's share of the attention, yeah, but that's allocation by need. I don't see how that's in any way equivalent to being sexist.

[iamzack]

...it's sexist to point out fairly obvious societal inequalities between men and women?

[General Battuta]

Women both benefit and suffer from what's called dual-attitude-complex sexism. On the one hand, women are viewed as morally superior, and both men and women report more satisfying friendships with women. On the other hand, women are seen as emotional, unstable, weak, less intelligent, less competent, and so forth. In general this seems to work against women in most stereotypically male domains.

Men aren't free, by any means, and a lot of fairly prominent feminist thought spends time on how men are hurt by the patriarchal gender system just as women are.

[iamzack]

I did point out the positive side of the expectations of attractiveness that women have, that we have many more options when it comes to increasing our attractiveness compared to men. Men basically have it or don't.

On the other hand, you don't really have to be too attractive to be successful as a guy. *shrug*

The really sad thing is when anti-feminists start *****ing about male emasculation by feminists. Like it's feminists' fault not automatically being better than half the population (apparently) damages the male ego. Pfft.

[QuantumDelta]

We have different definitions of feminism.
By your definition I'm a feminist.
However, I am clearly _neutral_.

A feminist(for example) is like a certain prominent member of the labour party, who declared she should be made priminister, or chancellor of the exchequer, simply because there was no women in the top three positions of power in the country. Not because she was actually BETTER than any of the guys who were doing the job, nor was she championing anyone who was, she just believed a women should have one of the seats, and not the best person for the job.

Which, is retarded.

[iamzack]

Oh, okay, we're making up definitions to suit our tastes. Well, a QuantumDelta (for example) is a moron who misrepresents groups he doesn't like.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, that's not what a feminist is, QD.

[QuantumDelta]

Variants;
Amazon · Anarchist · Atheist · Black · Chicana · Christian · Conservative · Cultural · Cyber · Difference · Eco · Equity · Equality · Fat · French structuralist · Gender · Global · Individualist · Islamic · Jewish · Lesbian · Liberal · Lipstick · Marxist · Material · New · Postcolonial · Postmodern · Pro-life · Proto · Radical · Separatist · Sex-positive · Socialist · Standpoint · Theology · Third world · Trans · Womanism


Yea, it's a really one-word umbrella subject.

[General Battuta]

You just declared that a feminist was someone who advocated for the advancement of women solely for the sake of the advancement of women. I'd suggest this later post is a laudable step up.

[QuantumDelta]

Hardly.
But typically, people professing themselves to be feminist, in my culture, at least, have displayed similar if not identical characteristics.

Nevermind the different 'waves' of feminism that also distinctly differentiates their goals and ambitions, most people I've met who espouse feminism, either in real life, online or in the media, _are_ basically sexist women.

About the only noteable exceptions to this have been a few people in TED talks.
Resentment and hatred is so stepped into some peoples minds that they have trouble finding a balance of "Who really gives a **** (what sex they are, what colour they are, etc)?", which is what most of my friends use as a default position.

[General Battuta]

The issue is that when you say 'who really gives a ****', you may even wholeheartedly consciously believe you don't give a ****, but your implicit attitudes will still be rife with whatever's been programmed into them. Nobody controls their own behavior or beliefs.

[Mars]

QD, I agree with Karajorma, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Feminism, in it's truest sense is about the equality of women. I am a feminist; I believe that women should have every opportunity as men. I think that all too often men do not carry their weight in things like raising children, becoming educated, and numerous other aspects of society.



On the other aspect of the conversation I don't have any studies on this but on a personal note:
I personally came from a family where in my mother and two half-sisters came from a family wherein they were physically and mentally abused.

As a result of that, I grew up being told how evil 'men' were; one of my first memories was of getting chased by my sister with a broom while she screamed "You get what you deserve!" and "Men!"

Discrimination against men is real, and it is a problem; how commonplace it is, however, I have no idea.

[General Battuta]

Even if it were comparatively rare it'd be a problem.

[Topgun]

I think discrimination against both sexes is pretty common. Its just that discrimination against women is more prevalent where it matters the most, in the professional environment.

I see where QD is coming from, since the "bad" feminists get the most attention, but you needs to realize that not all feminists are like that.